00:00:00:20 - 00:00:16:14 Speaker 1 This is the Counseling Insights Podcast, a podcast to help you develop your own insights and practices. As you listen to Vicki Ends, connect with counselors and helping professionals about their work, their passions, and their strategies. 00:00:16:16 - 00:00:17:07 Speaker 2 Welcome to. 00:00:17:08 - 00:00:39:20 Speaker 7 Another episode of the Counseling. Insights podcast. My name is Vickie Ends, and I am your host. Before we dive into today's conversation, I want to let you know about a series that we've decided to do on our topic of artificial intelligence and mental health counseling. The first conversation was in June of 2026 with Candace Alder, where we explored ethics and AI. 00:00:39:22 - 00:00:54:17 Speaker 7 Today, I'm talking to Holly Jamieson, and we're going to explore the stance of a bit more caution and questioning. Next, I'll talk to Shelly Caldera and we discuss her team's approach of embracing AI with much more enthusiasm. 00:00:54:22 - 00:01:07:00 Speaker 2 And finally, Candice will return for part two, where we'll do a deeper dive into ethical decision making so that we can each figure out our own approach around using AI in our counseling work. 00:01:07:02 - 00:01:36:21 Speaker 2 Joining me today is Holly Jamieson. Holly is a registered psychotherapist and accredited music therapist. Originally from the UK, she has lived and worked in Toronto, Ontario, Canada for many years. Holly currently sees clients at Toronto Psychotherapy Space using a client centered, integrative and anti oppressive approach. Holly supports clients in a variety of areas including anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and grief processing. 00:01:36:22 - 00:01:49:19 Speaker 2 Recently, Holly has been exploring artificial intelligence, and she's excited to discuss the nuances of her thoughts on using AI in day to day lives, as well as in her counseling work. 00:01:49:20 - 00:01:51:04 Speaker 1 Holly. 00:01:51:06 - 00:01:54:01 Speaker 2 Thank you so much for. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. 00:01:54:02 - 00:02:15:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm I'm so excited to talk to you today. I, this is a topic that I think is on a lot of people's minds for a variety of reasons. And, you know, I think you and I were chatting even just a little bit before we started, and, and I think generally speaking, you know, of course, there's a range of ways people are engaging with it and are feeling about it. 00:02:15:06 - 00:02:39:08 Speaker 1 Some are excited and embracing it, others are afraid of it. I have to admit, personally, I swing, I think kind of back and forth and land between those two. What I do fully embrace, however, is that it is very important for us to be thinking and talking about actively talking about this in our community as helpers and counselors, because people are using AI a lot. 00:02:39:09 - 00:03:04:11 Speaker 1 And so it's probably showing up, I imagine. Maybe we'll talk about this maybe in your counseling room. I know I hear about it a lot. Whether people are using it for just their own, people are using it for their own mental health. They use for relationship questions, parenting advice. I mean, kind of everything. So, and more and more, I think it's coming up on the service providers side as well in many ways. 00:03:04:13 - 00:03:21:00 Speaker 1 But just as one, I think we all have emails coming in all the time trying to get us to sign up for, you know, some kind of software to do clinical notes for us, that sort of thing. So it's touching all of our lives. So I really wanted to talk to a variety of people on this topic. To get a sense of different views. 00:03:21:00 - 00:03:40:21 Speaker 1 And, and you are one of those people and so really excited to to get your take and perspective and experience. So with all of that, let's I want to turn it over to you. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your how were you introduced to artificial intelligence and what what were your early experiences and, and thoughts about it? 00:03:40:23 - 00:04:06:10 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a good starting question because I find similar to you that I also oscillate in that gray area between this elements that feel exciting, that there's a lot of potential and there's elements that feel scary and risky and uncertain to, so I've been practicing for about four years now, since November 2022. And ironically enough, November 2022 is when ChatGPT first started to come out. 00:04:06:11 - 00:04:21:09 Speaker 2 Now, I didn't adopt it right away. I was aware of it being introduced. There was a lot of discussion about it, just in discourse in general, but I didn't jump in right away. Which kind of tracks I mean, even when the iPhone came out when I was in college, it took me a couple of years to get on that. 00:04:21:11 - 00:04:40:02 Speaker 2 So it took me a bit of time before I started really exploring it more. Yeah. The first time I used it was around actually 20, 24. I was getting married and we were planning the wedding all ourselves, and that was a bit of a daunting task. I'd never done it before. And so I thought, hey, you know, I have some friends. 00:04:40:02 - 00:04:59:02 Speaker 2 I have peers who are using ChatGPT. This might be a good time to explore what it's like. And I actually found it very helpful and it helped me do budgeting. It helped me do spreadsheets, this kind of thing. So I really started with more personal use. So things like wedding planning, general advice of day to day things. 00:04:59:02 - 00:05:19:09 Speaker 2 One of the ways that's been really helpful is taxes. I found that being a very helpful a bit of a minefield. If my brain goes blank every time I try to gauge with my taxes. Yeah. So that's been super supportive. Another recent use is using it like I just started getting into gardening and there's a bit of a learning curve there. 00:05:19:09 - 00:05:39:03 Speaker 2 So just kind of learning about different things. I like how you can just send it a picture of something and it can give you a read back. So kind of pretty casual use, almost like the way I describe it as, it's operating as a bit of a personal assistant of sorts, and almost like an advanced search engine you have in your back pocket. 00:05:39:04 - 00:05:46:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, that's what I often say. It's like a Google search on steroids. 00:05:46:04 - 00:05:47:00 Speaker 2 Yeah. 00:05:47:02 - 00:05:48:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:48:14 - 00:06:09:08 Speaker 2 These are that comes with like a level of conflict to stay with the gardening example, one of the things I was thinking about is, you know, it was very helpful. It gave me advice. It gave me what I needed to know super quickly. So helpful for that day. But then I was thinking about it after, and I thought, there's, you know, other ways I could have got that information. 00:06:09:08 - 00:06:28:17 Speaker 2 All right. Like, the library is close by. Beautiful. I could have walked over and looked at a book. My mom's an avid gardener. Why am I not picking up the phone and asking mom, like, hey, what do you think about this raised layout? Or so that's where I get a little sticky of like, there's a pull I'm noticing towards using AI, I think ease optimization. 00:06:28:17 - 00:06:50:04 Speaker 2 It's right there. I can get the answer in like a matter of seconds. Right? But there's also more kind of values aligned ways that I could get that information to through connecting with my community. The environmental impact has me quite cautious in terms of it being pretty poor for the environment. So that's where some of the conflict lies, even in my personal use of AI. 00:06:50:06 - 00:07:02:04 Speaker 2 Yeah, helpful. And at the same time harmful. And there's sort of things that I could be or other methods I could be using to get the advice and the information that I'm using AI for. 00:07:02:06 - 00:07:20:04 Speaker 1 Yeah, that's really interesting. I'm so glad you brought that out because, that makes a lot. I love how you said, like, there were other ways I could have gotten that in, like the library. Your mom or or, you know, that kind of stuff. It's, it's a that's a really good point to think about. Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:20:06 - 00:07:29:08 Speaker 1 So, so what about when did it start to trickle in to your counseling work or to into your thoughts about that. 00:07:29:10 - 00:07:56:00 Speaker 2 Not too far after it being introduced I started to notice clients reference using ChatGPT. And it's very I've noticed it's a very, broad spectrum of use. I have clients who have never brought it up, never referenced. It doesn't necessarily mean they're not using it, but it just hasn't come up. I have other clients where they'll reference it kind of in a similar way I position to you of personal assistant type. 00:07:56:00 - 00:08:19:00 Speaker 2 I have a lot of clients who have used it for things like job hunting. That seems quite helpful, where they'll actually, strangely enough, have a lot of clients who are on the job hunting position at the moment, and a lot of them have referenced it being very helpful around walking through a mock interview, giving them feedback and making them feel, you know, job hunting is a hard thing to do, making them feel more confident going into these interviews. 00:08:19:00 - 00:08:38:13 Speaker 2 So I think there's some areas where it's really helpful. And again, it's it's wide net of how people are bringing it up, the way I tend to respond to it. I don't initiate discussion about AI in my practice at this point in time at least, but I find it's a client brings it up or they reference it offhand. 00:08:38:13 - 00:08:59:02 Speaker 2 It might be an area that we sometimes explore in session. The general sentiment that I'm garnering from the clients I see is that people are finding it generally helpful. They're using it as an assistant. What I see less of, which is kind of interesting, is people coming into sessions and reporting that they are using it for mental health support. 00:08:59:04 - 00:09:18:05 Speaker 2 I have seen that in clients where they'll mention a lot of relational stuff I notice. So I was having a fight with my partner, and I used ChatGPT to sort of organize my thoughts, figure out how I wanted to approach this, how do I want to talk to my partner about it? So very kind of practical, hands on kind of resourcing in that way. 00:09:18:09 - 00:09:36:04 Speaker 2 I have friends who've mentioned that they've used it for more mental health support, validation, reassurance, these kinds of things, but it doesn't come up that much. And it's it's interesting because I was thinking about to my own I'm in therapy as well. I haven't brought it up to my therapist again. Doesn't mean that I'm not using it. So it's. 00:09:36:06 - 00:09:58:14 Speaker 2 It's weirdly enough, like, again, ChatGPT has been around for about four years now, right? I would say how much it's coming up in session probably doesn't actually reflect how much it's being used. Right. Yeah. By my clients and it I, I'm actually kind of surprised that it hasn't come up as organically with my clients in session as I may have anticipated it to. 00:09:58:16 - 00:10:07:05 Speaker 2 And same thing with my colleagues. It's something that doesn't really come up in in our chats as much. So that's one of the things I actually find a bit surprising. 00:10:07:06 - 00:10:28:19 Speaker 1 That's true. That's true. Just as you were saying that I was having a flashback to Facebook, which is still around, but yeah, but I remember I couldn't put a date on it, but I remember distinctly when we were having there was a parallel conversation to what you and I are having right now about with me and my colleagues for like about Facebook showing up in the therapy. 00:10:28:20 - 00:10:45:19 Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Like felt like another member of the family in the room or something like that. I, I just had a was remembering that and and how much and people would reference it or you know, be I don't know it took up space. Right. And so and I remember really feeling that like it was like really in the room. 00:10:45:19 - 00:11:16:22 Speaker 1 So as you say that I it's true. It's it's, it's kind of interesting that, that it's it's maybe not as blatant in some ways. Yeah. Although I do feel I will say that I do feel like there's, you know, not a a big surge, but, I certainly noticed in the last just even three months or something, it certainly it suddenly popping up just more and often, often people not always, but often they kind of as soon as they, they kind of lean in and whisper, right. 00:11:16:23 - 00:11:26:16 Speaker 1 Like there's a little bit of, like, I don't know if I should tell you. Yeah. So that's, that's been interesting to me to how it comes up when it does. Yeah. Yeah. 00:11:26:17 - 00:11:48:18 Speaker 2 I've noticed that as well that it's, it's become a lot more normalized. Even people, whether it be discussions with my community, with friends or even with clients, it'll be kind of reference very offhand and casually of, oh, I was talking to ChatGPT about X, y, Z just sort of dropped casually in a conversation, or I asked ChatGPT, x, y, Z about advice, that kind of thing. 00:11:48:20 - 00:12:08:14 Speaker 2 So it does seem to be more normalized, but I agree, there's almost like a kind of hush hush. And I notice that in my own use of it too, of I'm not super candid about how I'm using it. I think there is a part of me that feels a little bit almost, even guilty and a little bit strangely shameful about using AI as well. 00:12:08:15 - 00:12:34:22 Speaker 2 And I've been really trying to sort of understand where that's coming from. And again, it's, it's living in that gray, or if there's the helpful pulse, there's the way it's being used, the way I see my friends using it, my clients using it, the way it's been normalized. But there is this other piece of, again, recognizing the environmental impact, the way that I could very well be getting these this information from other sources that I could, I don't know, just resonate more with. 00:12:34:23 - 00:12:44:14 Speaker 2 So again, it's this oscillation between it being helpful and not super aligned and not super resonant at the same time. And I wonder if that's reflected in others as well. 00:12:44:16 - 00:13:05:03 Speaker 1 Yeah, I if I can go back just a little bit, I couldn't help but notice when you said something like that, right, that you don't initiate talking about AI with your clients at this point. I was curious about that. Why did you highlight at this point something it feels like it's evolving or. Yeah. 00:13:05:05 - 00:13:27:12 Speaker 2 I think so, I think so. And I think that's important. I want to like, as conflicted as I feel about it, I want to ensure and I've had some discussions with colleagues about this as well, that I remain open to it, because an example coming to my mind as I was thinking about it more, this hasn't shown up for me recently, just with the clients that I'm seeing. 00:13:27:14 - 00:13:52:15 Speaker 2 But there are certain contraindications with AI. So let's say someone who has a history of psychosis or mania, delusional thinking, even OCD or intrusive thoughts. I could see getting a little tricky in this area. There I think there would be a a clinical validity in terms of bringing in inquiring questions and say the setting of an intake session. 00:13:52:19 - 00:14:21:11 Speaker 2 And that's actually something I've been thinking about. And this is where it's all such a new area and such a gray territory of. And I've been asking myself this question of, do I start to incorporate this into my intake assessments of just, again, a casual question about if the client or how the client is using AI for mental health support, because there are certain situations where it may be contraindicated or may be risky for the client to be interfacing with AI in a certain way. 00:14:21:11 - 00:14:40:11 Speaker 2 Again, with the ones I mentioned and me as their therapist, that would be helpful for me to know. So we could do some resourcing around that, diversifying the toolbox and doing risk mitigation. So that's why it's at the moment I'm not bringing it up, but it has been on my mind in terms of do I start bringing that into the room a little bit more? 00:14:40:12 - 00:14:58:20 Speaker 2 Because at the moment I'm quite hands off. If a client brings it up, I'm happy to explore, but I don't tend to initiate discussion about that. But there's a point to be made that it would be worthwhile checking in with clients about it and setting like an intake session. So it's been on my mind. Yeah. 00:14:58:21 - 00:15:24:20 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's interesting, as you say that because it, it's one of those times it's like, oh yeah, that seems like such a, an obvious possible place to consider bringing it up. And I hadn't even, I hadn't thought about that yet, you know, in the sense of, you know, in our intake or our beginning when we begin conversation with someone where I know I'm, I'm, you know, we're usually asking, what are their supports, what's their community like or what's what are their do they have supports in their life. 00:15:24:20 - 00:15:48:01 Speaker 1 And and it would make a lot of sense. You're right. Like perhaps that could be a good place to be inquiring, you know, kind of normal or, you know, make as you shared earlier, you know, I think it is common for people to feel a bit conflicted and and maybe not maybe, maybe sometimes not worrying about it, but other times, maybe not necessarily feeling comfortable to bring it forward. 00:15:48:01 - 00:16:03:05 Speaker 1 So there's value maybe in, in kind of just normalizing or validating that this is something that's really in our lives. And is this something that you've ever tried that asking a person, you've ever tried it as part of their support or something they use? It's a great point. 00:16:03:08 - 00:16:27:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. And then that would allow you to come back to it as well. If you've laid the groundwork in an intake session, we've already kind of explored that. It does allow you to kind of go back in time and reference it. If it does come up in the treatment plan or if it comes up in a type of way where that may be more challenging with a client, where it hasn't come up to date, and then maybe there is something going on, or there is something more challenging in terms of their use of AI. 00:16:27:23 - 00:16:56:21 Speaker 2 And you might, as a therapist, not necessarily be aware of it because you haven't inquired. And a client might not, not as you're mentioning, be comfortable in raising that in session. So it's almost a point of like, should the onus be on the client to it, or should the onus be on the therapist to check in on that and ensure the client is aware that there's an open door and this is a non-judgmental space for you to bring either things that feel super helpful about AI use, or if there's things that are maybe getting a little sticky with the ice as well. 00:16:57:03 - 00:17:14:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. You've mentioned chatting with your colleagues and I'm curious, because you work in a group practice, so yeah, you're, you're with each other or crossing palettes. Anyway, what are some of those conversations like, what are some of the debates or opinions you hear? 00:17:14:17 - 00:17:40:01 Speaker 2 It's interesting because I think the the discussions I've had with my colleagues, they very much seem to reflect my own positioning on it. So there's times that it's come organically. Say, this would have been maybe about a year and change ago, but and again, you see your colleagues quite briefly in a group practice, you know, in between sessions you're grabbing a quick granola bar or, you know, you're kind of waiting for your next client to show up, a lot of it sort of connecting with your colleagues. 00:17:40:01 - 00:18:04:22 Speaker 2 Small talk, you know, how is your trip, this kind of stuff. But it has come up organically a few times where I had a colleague mentioned that, oh, look, I've been using this for documentation and it's been really helpful. You know, they were mentioning that it helps them mitigate burnout, which I can understand in terms of it taking a level of documentation off their plate so that they have more capacity to either engage in self-care, maybe take on a different client load. 00:18:05:00 - 00:18:29:09 Speaker 2 So that's one of the things they were referencing. And then I had an interesting discussion with another colleague the other day because, again, it's a great practice where we're located in Toronto, we have a great space and it hasn't come up in our practice. So we haven't, as a practice, adopted any AI protocols at this point in time, although it is available to us, as you mentioned at the beginning, the emails are coming in right around. 00:18:29:10 - 00:18:51:15 Speaker 2 We have this service and the platform we use, Jane, which is quite a common one here in Ontario and I believe in Canada as well, has introduced a, a tool called the AI scribe that essentially is a tool that allows Jane to record the session. I believe it transcribes the session, and then I believe it uses that data to formulate the documentation. 00:18:51:15 - 00:19:10:21 Speaker 2 Note. And I would imagine there might be different styles you could have it do maybe a Soap note, or depending on what your style of note taking is. And so I was talking to my colleague about this as this was coming out, and we were both quite again on the fence of living in that gray area and leaning more apprehensive towards it. 00:19:10:21 - 00:19:26:14 Speaker 2 And this is really where I've been thinking about it, like an example is the other day I was at the dentist and I noticed for the first time they had a sign they used Jane and I've been at the same dentist for a while and quite candid with them. And so and they know I'm a therapist and we talk about Jane and we talk about documentation, these kinds of things. 00:19:26:15 - 00:20:02:14 Speaker 2 And I saw a sign on the wall saying, oh, you know, we're recording the sessions, we're using an AI tool to document. And I just noticed that on the wall. And I was thinking, okay, I have no issue with that in the context of the dentist's chair. But then I was thinking, okay, but in the psychotherapy space, I think there's something quite unique and valuable in the psychotherapy space in terms of it offering a container, a confidential space, and a place where you're really connecting with another human being about some of the more vulnerable and deep and even at times, traumatic experiences you've had. 00:20:02:20 - 00:20:25:04 Speaker 2 So even though I have the awareness that it's not like a listening ear. It's it's, you know, it's being used for a specific purpose. There's something that still feels strangely invasive about it. And I was talking to my colleague about this, and he was on a similar page of, again, open to it. And part of what we're talking about too, is, is there a degree of inevitability in terms of this? 00:20:25:05 - 00:20:44:17 Speaker 2 You know, if we look at and again, I've only been four years in the field, I'm still fairly new therapists, all things considered. So even say my first session in my internship was a virtual session. So say the example of the incorporation of telehealth, which I also know was a broad topic in the field. Right? What are the ethics around this? 00:20:44:17 - 00:21:05:03 Speaker 2 How can we use this safely? For me, it's been super normalized because it's been a part of my entire practice so far. But the incorporation of AI, which essentially has paralleled my introduction to this field, is is a new territory. So I think I'm getting a sense of the broader kind of grayscale around the introduction of new technology. 00:21:05:03 - 00:21:30:05 Speaker 2 And I think the valid concern and apprehension that exists, the importance of these discussions, discussions with my colleagues, discussions that we're having as a practice, as a community, as therapists. Yeah, important, but conflicted in terms of it feels invasive. We were also talking about the importance of consent, informed consent for clients, the importance of transparency, the fact that a client could opt out at any time. 00:21:30:08 - 00:21:47:17 Speaker 2 I even thought about it with my own therapy. How comfortable would I feel with that red record button? Being honest, you know, as I'm a deeper work, there's no right answer. It feels at this point, and that seems to be the general consensus amongst my colleagues of we're living in the gray area together, it seems. 00:21:47:19 - 00:22:08:06 Speaker 1 Right. Yeah, yeah. And I really resonate as you talked about that and highlighted that because just kind of the, the uniqueness of the, of the counseling or therapy space and, and I think and that really hit a chord for me. I think that's a big thing for me to that. You know, we emphasized that so much in, you know, in with our clients when we set things up. 00:22:08:06 - 00:22:30:21 Speaker 1 We talk about confidentiality usually. And, and of course, it's at the top of all of our codes of ethics. And, and so it is it is really. Yeah. There is something that just feels a little weird at minimum. And, you know, perhaps invasive as you as you note. To think about incorporating that, it's it's interesting. Yeah. 00:22:30:23 - 00:22:54:22 Speaker 1 You know, I'll mention to you, Holly, as I said in introducing this topic, I, I'm doing like a little series. I'm talking to a number of different people, and and one of the people I'm talking to really does a deep dive into the ethics is she calls herself an AI ethicist. And so, and so that conversation has been really illuminating. 00:22:54:22 - 00:23:23:09 Speaker 1 And I think, gives me some hope to in the sense of like, you know, that that I think there are people working on, on thinking through some more clear guidelines and, you know, so it doesn't feel quite so gray and like the wild, wild West. Right. And, and but but I do think but it's so evolving and a moving thing and, and there's much that, that isn't really isn't even known. 00:23:23:09 - 00:23:45:03 Speaker 1 Yes. Let alone kind of really understood in the broad public or kind of in terms of how, how do we really safely and ethically use this. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it sounds like so it sounds like in your practice you have colleagues who some who maybe are embracing it somewhat like on an administrative side. Sounds like for you. 00:23:45:04 - 00:24:07:09 Speaker 1 You've, do you, do you feel like is that something like it sounds like you're considering it. I'm wondering if you've if you've found are there places you're clear, that you feel like this is an absolute. No, I'm not going to touch that. You reference that. There's some contraindications with maybe certain things clients might be dealing with. So that's maybe one area. 00:24:07:11 - 00:24:07:21 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:24:07:22 - 00:24:34:09 Speaker 2 I've kind of in almost set some personal lines in the sand in terms of no go areas at the moment. Again with the idea of like open subject to change. But at this point in time, the way I'm incorporating AI into my practice is essentially quite minimally, only administratively, and not touching any client data or client work, which in my view also includes documentation. 00:24:34:10 - 00:24:49:06 Speaker 2 Right? So a few examples of how I do use it is say like a couple of weeks back I got strep throat. And so I'm waking up in the morning, I feel awful. And I've got five clients scheduled that day. I need to quickly rattle out emails to let them know I can't. I can't see them that day. 00:24:49:08 - 00:25:10:01 Speaker 2 So that's an example where I had ChatGPT create a template for that I could use sending over to clients. It was a pretty good one. I made a few tweaks added in my rescheduling availability and off it went. So that's an example. Again, taxes is an example. Not touching client data at all, but an incredibly helpful resource in terms of my own work. 00:25:10:03 - 00:25:33:13 Speaker 2 And another example, and I think this is a really cool use of AI is in creating interventions, again, not specific to particular clients, but more broadly. So an example is this would have been about two years ago as I was just kind of getting my feet wet with the and and getting used to using it personally and in, in practice is I made a deck of question cards. 00:25:33:13 - 00:25:59:21 Speaker 2 I see a lot of teams in my practice, a lot of people with neurodivergent. And so I created an intervention I called the Question Card Game, where it's essentially a deck of 64 cards with a variety of questions about emotions, identity, family, get to know you questions. So it's kind of designed as a rapport building tool. Also can be used in an intake session or in those earlier sessions is establishing rapport safety trust. 00:25:59:23 - 00:26:15:20 Speaker 2 And so I came up with a bunch of questions myself. But then I thought, well, why not plug it into AI? So I plugged in my list. I gave it the prompt of, you know, this is what this will be used for. And it gave me a bunch more questions, some I didn't use and some I did. And that's been a really successful intervention since. 00:26:15:20 - 00:26:44:10 Speaker 2 So that's a few sentences to how I am using it. And essentially everything else is how I'm not using it. So when it comes to things like and there's a few reasons. So say an example like documentation where some of my colleagues are very well using IT support documentation for me, I get a little bit nervous about the confidentiality piece in terms of at least what the I I'm familiar with, which so far has essentially only been ChatGPT. 00:26:44:11 - 00:27:03:23 Speaker 2 It's a free service. I have no idea where that data is stored. I could spend some time, if I was passionate about it, to, do my due diligence and look into where that data is sure to ensure it is protected. And that's, I think, where the competence comes in. And showing that you have competence with AI used to incorporate it. 00:27:03:23 - 00:27:23:17 Speaker 2 I don't have that at this point in time. And to be honest, I don't see that I have that much to gain at this point from really learning that skill because again, I'm four years in, so even the process of note taking and documenting my sessions, is it tedious at times? Sure. After a long client day, is it always what I want to do? 00:27:23:17 - 00:27:56:09 Speaker 2 Not necessarily. But at the same time, it's a skill that, again, I've put a lot of effort into learning, a skill that I'm still honing. And as with any skill, it's like a muscle, right? You need to kind of keep using it to keep it fresh. And so even the act of documenting, of looking at, you know, documenting your assessment, documenting the interventions you use, your clinical rationale, these are all things that, in my view, support my practice as a therapist and support the ongoing skill building that exists in that field. 00:27:56:09 - 00:28:16:07 Speaker 2 And same thing with other uses like, no one in my practice I've talked to about this, but, I'm also a fan of the odd Reddit forum, and it shows up in the therapist Reddit forum of people using AI for things like, case conceptualization or treatment planning, these kinds of things, and a similar thing. It's just doesn't feel confidential. 00:28:16:11 - 00:28:41:15 Speaker 2 And it's also then, you know, taking away some of your own kind of clinical rationale and the steps you go through when you're meeting with a client of assessing and understanding how you can meet their needs. These are important skills that I don't necessarily want to hand over to an AI tool, because then I'd worry about, well, what happens to my skill set in five years, ten years, 20 years, with that skill set? 00:28:41:16 - 00:29:09:08 Speaker 2 And will I be able to retain my competence level in these skills if the AI is doing it for me? So at this point in time, I don't have to see that there's much to gain. And the risks like with confidentiality, consent, even things like AI, hallucinations, AI can sometimes essentially just give you the wrong factual information. So there's the risk of me maybe operating off of something that isn't necessarily even evidence space. 00:29:09:08 - 00:29:22:21 Speaker 2 So then at that point, I'm operating outside of my standards of practice. So that's why I'm really not using it for client work. But I do feel it helpful in those more admin based tasks I referenced earlier. 00:29:23:03 - 00:29:56:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. No, I think you you raised the number of really important points there that are great for people to think about. And you know, just that like the last thing you were mentioning there, like just how it kind of intersects with our, with our scope of practice or, you know, kind of, I had someone else, I was talking another guest I was talking to, you know, mentioned kind of made the parallel of, like using a modality that, like, if I wasn't trained in CBT, I'm not going to suddenly call myself a CBT therapist or, you know, I'm that sort of thing. 00:29:56:02 - 00:30:14:22 Speaker 1 And so similarly, you know, if you plug something into AI and it spits out something that you don't really I, as the therapist, don't have enough background in. We can't necessarily vet that information. So that that was a that was a really good point. And I and I love how you talk about competence, you know, both in the sense of. 00:30:15:00 - 00:30:48:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, like our thinking about in a way, if we're how what are we using AI to replace? And are those skills or tasks important for us to somehow also still do in other ways? Kind of like back to your gardening reference. But also just to understand, like the first thing you talked about, the understanding, the real scope of it and and I again, just referencing, you know, I'm wanting listeners also to know that there's going to be we have other episodes on this topic, so encourage them to go and find them. 00:30:48:16 - 00:31:15:17 Speaker 1 And so with with Candace, who I talked about the AI and ethics. She, she talked a lot about AI and literacy, which I think is exactly what your idea of competence was really understanding. How is this working and, and how do we understand the parameters of it. And so yeah, I think that idea that is important for all of us to be aware of, you know, as you said right at the start, there's that pull like it's so easy and it's and it's it's kind of fun. 00:31:15:17 - 00:31:41:01 Speaker 1 I mean, I too have explored it, you know, just personally. And, and it is kind of fun. It can be. Right. And and and just so easy. Right. So it's understandably, there is that maybe pull for people. So really key to, to consider the what the parameters maybe should be. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 00:31:41:03 - 00:32:12:00 Speaker 1 Is there anything about it that you're excited about or that you hope maybe that's not the right word, but, you talked about feeling, staying open, and, I don't know, is there something you have your eye on or that you think you know? It's like, you know, I could see, like, if if there's more information that comes out or if you ever have, you know, spare time to, to do the research, you know, it'd be it'd be great to maybe I wonder, maybe that would be an area I'd want to embrace it, I don't know. 00:32:12:01 - 00:32:14:01 Speaker 1 Is there an area you have your eye on? 00:32:14:03 - 00:32:34:10 Speaker 2 There definitely is. There definitely is. And again, it's sort of part of the gray area. Right? There's definitely pros that, AI use offers. The first one that comes to mind is accessibility. AI is free, AI is available 24 over seven. Right. So if we look at it, you know, I'll speak to the province of Ontario as that's where I'm currently practicing. 00:32:34:10 - 00:32:57:22 Speaker 2 But at this point in time, mental health care is largely a private, resource for people. There are public options, but those can be more limited. There can be long waitlists. They're not always accessible as well. And so who am I to knock somebody for using AI for mental health support in a more broader systemic context where it isn't available to everybody, and gatekeeping exists. 00:32:57:22 - 00:33:23:13 Speaker 2 So that's where I get really excited of, you know, especially when we look at the idea of potential. And if us as mental health clinicians and as a field are really collaborating with, say, software developers or people who are creating these tools, I think there's a really cool opportunity here to really broaden accessibility for mental health care across the board, in terms of it being available to anybody who needs it. 00:33:23:15 - 00:33:46:21 Speaker 2 Like a thought that came into my mind when I was thinking about, you know, one of the the challenges with AI is at the moment is the lack of safeguarding, or that it isn't as safeguarded as it needs to be when it comes to things like, people experiencing suicidal ideation or just for self-harm, it doesn't have, you know, the necessarily the right amount of safeguards that needs to at this point in time. 00:33:47:01 - 00:34:22:03 Speaker 2 But if we look at, you know, where that could land and where I hope it would land, especially in collaboration with, with people in the field. And I again, like these people who are, you know, trained to do this work and to do the deep dive is how cool would it be if there was an AI tool that was offering mental health support and that had a variety of safeguards in place where if a client was disclosing or reporting some suicidal ideation, what if that AI connected them right then and there to the resource and to a train collision clinician on the other side who was available? 00:34:22:03 - 00:34:49:23 Speaker 2 So as opposed to, you know, if you're googling something and it gives you the the resources, that's helpful. Absolutely it is. But I mean, there's so much potential with this area that it could connect to you right in that moment. And that could be a really valuable resource for people. And I think to, you know, if we're really collaborating with, those who are making these products, we could find them, tune them even more to give support from different modalities and to take even. 00:34:50:00 - 00:35:07:10 Speaker 2 I wonder if, you know, I take quite a client centered approach. I wonder if there's a way an AI could even take a client centered approach, like, An example I'll give you, is I was experimenting with it a bit ago of using it for my own mental health support, because I was curious. Again, I'm imagining my clients are doing so. 00:35:07:12 - 00:35:26:08 Speaker 2 It's becoming more normalized. And so I was dealing with kind of a relational challenge at the time. And so I, you know, I wrote it into AI and it almost acted like a journal of sorts. You know, it was given me a space to express my emotions. The journal spoke back. Right. And it it did exactly. It did validate what I was feeling. 00:35:26:11 - 00:35:47:15 Speaker 2 And what was so interesting about it is I did feel seen and I did feel empathized with which when I look at it logically, I know that they say I cannot empathize with my human experience, but I still felt validated. I still felt a sense of relief and release, from the expression. But I was thinking about it after, and it sort of. 00:35:47:16 - 00:36:21:19 Speaker 2 I spent maybe about half an hour on it, and it ended up in quite a practical space and quite a hands on. Okay, here's some sort of ways I could raise this. It was a particular kind of interpersonal challenge and ended up in a very, yes, Lucian's oriented place. And it was interesting because one of the things I've been looking at in my own therapy is I think a lot of therapists experienced this as a fall into that category of people that are kind of on the intellectual Iser piece where we're analyzed and we'll get into fixit mode, and all these are kind of mechanisms that will take us out of the emotion and will 00:36:21:19 - 00:36:47:22 Speaker 2 stop us from turning towards it. So it's so interesting where this example I had of sort of half an hour of using AI was helpful, was therapeutic, but also countered some of the work I'm doing with my therapist where if I brought that into a session with my therapist, undoubtedly she would stop me in that moment and give me the space to really spend time with how I was feeling before diving into the more solutions oriented approach. 00:36:47:22 - 00:37:09:02 Speaker 2 That's just with my, you know, personal example. Yeah. So how cool would it be if an AI was able to take a client centered approach or have an understanding of what the client is looking at working on more broadly? I think there's so many areas where it can be improved. And again, with the accessibility piece to have any. 00:37:09:04 - 00:37:32:10 Speaker 2 Obviously it's not the same as a therapist, but the equivalent of having something of a therapist in your back pocket, I think is really cool. At the same time, it is important to name one of my favorite kind of facts I have from the research is, that across modalities and across therapists, the main indicator of positive outcomes is the therapeutic alliance and is the relationship. 00:37:32:10 - 00:37:38:03 Speaker 2 So the human nature of therapy, I don't think, can ever be replaced. 00:37:38:05 - 00:37:38:19 Speaker 1 By. 00:37:38:21 - 00:37:54:21 Speaker 2 But again with the accessibility appoint to have a resource available to you, especially if it's one designed with input by mental health clinicians. I think that's invaluable. And I think that's something we should definitely work towards incorporating. 00:37:55:00 - 00:38:10:10 Speaker 1 Right. Can you make a good argument for that? That sounds really good. And you maybe already answered that just a moment ago, but I was curious, does it not does it make you does it worry you at all about, you know, losing our own jobs? Yes. 00:38:10:12 - 00:38:32:16 Speaker 2 Another discussion. Hey. Yeah. Big discussion of something coming up in the broader discourse. Right? I think different jobs have different threat levels around this. I see this in my clients. This is something that's come up in terms of a wariness, you know, clients in certain fields where some of that, AI incorporation has been happening. Like one example is the field of animation. 00:38:32:18 - 00:38:52:06 Speaker 2 It's been happening quite a bit there. So people feeling insecure in their job, you know, financial stressors, you know, these are very real things that people are experiencing that do come into the therapy room. So from that perspective, I see it in the clients I work with and a sort of an anxiety about it when it comes to the field of therapy. 00:38:52:07 - 00:39:15:16 Speaker 2 Again, I think there's a human aspect that the evidence backs that an AI cannot ultimately replace in terms of human to human connection. That is inherently therapeutic in the work that we do. But again, at that time, and this is sort of the accessibility point is interesting because from a systemic standpoint, it feels like a bit of a Band-Aid on a wound that needs stitches. 00:39:15:20 - 00:39:34:09 Speaker 2 You know, a better way to approach this, in my view, would be to essentially work towards making public mental healthcare public and accessible to all. It is a right, in my view. So in my view, that would be the way to go about it. But I, you know, I might feel a bit resigned to that at times. 00:39:34:10 - 00:40:04:19 Speaker 2 And it's a hard system to work up against. So sometimes you need a bandaid. I think this is where that could play a really cool role. But yeah, I'm not that concerned about AI taking over the jobs of psychotherapists. I could see prospective clients who may have otherwise come into therapy feel supported by, kind of an AI therapist use, especially if it moves in that direction I was mentioning, where it becomes quite supportive and quite evidence fact. 00:40:05:00 - 00:40:18:07 Speaker 2 And again, I'm not going to knock that, especially given that it's not always accessible to people. So we may see less clients coming through the door. But I think the role of therapy in the role of a psychotherapist is just protected based on the human connection. 00:40:18:09 - 00:40:40:00 Speaker 1 Right. Well, of course, and this is a rabbit trail. We won't go very far down, but just a head right there is. We might have fewer clients in one way, but maybe we might have more. Who are there might be the whole new branch of relationships with their AI. A good one, a whole nother topic. It is. 00:40:40:05 - 00:40:40:16 Speaker 2 It is. 00:40:40:18 - 00:41:02:13 Speaker 1 I wanted yeah, I wanted to say though, as I really appreciated what you were saying there, and just to say that as I was listening to you, I think one of the things you helped me feel in touch with, because I was resonating a lot with what you're saying, like just the importance of the accessibility and how supportive and invaluable that could be. 00:41:02:15 - 00:41:22:02 Speaker 1 And yet recognizing the limitations and and what you got me in touch with was, I realize I can feel a lot of worry and fear about those kinds of things. I also have I have a real faith in us as humans. Right? Like in general, like, you know, in that, I mean, it'll take us a while. 00:41:22:02 - 00:41:40:03 Speaker 1 I think that, you know, like, right now we'll make a bunch of mistakes, as we always do with these things. And then and then we'll kind of figure out the nuances. Right? We'll figure out those safeguards. Well, people will themselves figure out how it helps them and how it doesn't. And, and that that feels good to me to be in back and it's like, yeah. 00:41:40:04 - 00:41:52:05 Speaker 1 And we can also trust ourselves and trust our people. I mean, I think it's good to have some healthy skepticism and caution, but, but I do have that faith in us as overall. 00:41:52:07 - 00:41:55:04 Speaker 3 Yeah, I appreciate that resonate with that as well, because. 00:41:55:05 - 00:42:24:17 Speaker 2 I think there's enough kind of people in the mental health space, in this space in general, that our advocating for, again, these safeguards and the safe use and even the, you know, the the policies around this space as well. I think I agree with you that there's enough people that, you know, parents, educators, mental health conditions, healthcare workers that are and that's just to name a few that are passionate about this area that I think, yeah, there's a there's a cause to be helpful here. 00:42:24:20 - 00:42:36:06 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Holly is there is there anything else I haven't asked you about that, that you wanted to share about your thoughts or your experience with AI? 00:42:36:08 - 00:42:39:13 Speaker 2 You think? 00:42:39:14 - 00:43:15:20 Speaker 2 I think some of the, some of the more kind of systemic fears I notice is and this is what you mentioned this a bit ago, actually, you made a comment which kind of brought this back to my mind, as you know, seeing clients around like a new topic, say, of relationships with AI. That's been another thing on my mind in terms of and I see this in the discourse as well, of, people using AI and things like AI chat bots almost as a little bit of a replacement for human relationships at times. 00:43:15:20 - 00:43:36:17 Speaker 2 And that, I feel, can be an area of concern in an area where we as a field can kind of spend some time, because we've already noticed an increase in withdrawal and isolation. I think a lot of that came out of the pandemic. Right. A increase in social anxiety. And I see this in my client base as well. 00:43:36:23 - 00:43:54:05 Speaker 2 I see a lot of clients. I even see it in myself at times as sort of withdrawing in a counseling on plans, at times in isolation. And I think and I noticed this in my client work, that it's often an area that we're looking at in therapy and how can we work with this and what are the protective mechanisms at play? 00:43:54:05 - 00:44:33:17 Speaker 2 And, and how can we kind of work towards getting the client if this is an area that they struggle with, which I do see in my, in my caseload, how can we have them more engaged in their community and in their relationships? And this is one area where and it's more so I think, for, you know, kids, adolescent populations, young adults, where I and I even thinking back to my own teenage years, how much easier would feel to sort of use an AI figure or, say, a chat bot to feel like it's meeting the social need and to feel again, seeing which I think it does do to an extent, but again, 00:44:33:18 - 00:45:14:10 Speaker 2 not necessarily. I think it's a bit a bit murky when these AI figures start to replace social connection. And that's just an area I've noticed in terms of I worry that it might further spur on withdrawing an isolation that we're seeing in the broader population, especially with certain demographics. So again, something to keep an eye on. And I think as therapists, as we are navigating this great area to, again, keep an eye on certain clients and maybe, as we were discussing earlier, maybe this is something we start to ask in intake sessions where if a client is noticing that they're maybe withdrawing a little bit, isolating a little bit of starting to gently inquire 00:45:14:10 - 00:45:35:04 Speaker 2 about is there an AI element and how can we risk mitigate and how can we, you know, factor that into to treatment plans as well. So another piece that's been on my mind and other piece that feels important to name and reflect on as clinicians, if we're working with populations where that's also maybe a feature of clients experiences. 00:45:35:05 - 00:46:02:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. That maybe that's a great takeaway right there. But I did want as a last question to you, Holly, I wanted to see if, you know, if you were to offer our listeners, you know, at at this point, you know, kind of one, one thing that stands out for you and for folks who maybe aren't, as you know, kind of new to it or or haven't done nearly as much thinking about it as you've clearly reflected on this a lot. 00:46:02:02 - 00:46:08:23 Speaker 1 So, yeah. Is there any what would you highlight for folks to maybe it's a starting place or just something that seems really important? 00:46:09:01 - 00:46:33:04 Speaker 2 I think that that openness coming back to that openness to like, you know, be aware of what is, well, wary some what can be nerve wracking, what can feel intimidating or concerning about a use not to disregard that, but to also ensure that you're not necessarily closing the door on it either, to remain open, to remain curious. 00:46:33:06 - 00:46:59:16 Speaker 2 One of the things I really enjoy, podcasts and continuing education and even just discussions with colleagues to keep it as an open topic, because as you were, you were mentioning earlier, this is a new area. This is a fairly new technology in the broader schemes of things. So, ethical use, standards of practice, these things will continue to evolve as the technology changes, as it advances. 00:46:59:16 - 00:47:15:08 Speaker 2 So almost the idea of keeping your ear to the ground and staying involved in these discussions and engaging in these discussions yourself and embracing the gray area and remaining open, that's sort of that would be my takeaway of how to interface with it right now. Embrace the gray. 00:47:15:10 - 00:47:39:15 Speaker 1 Embrace the gray. I love that, Holly, thank you so much. This has been just a really enlightening conversation. And I really I just so appreciate how, you know, you you clearly are someone who is comfortable with technology. It's part of your life. It's, you know, you're and and and so you're, you're, as you just talked about, you're very open and embracing of that. 00:47:39:15 - 00:47:53:19 Speaker 1 And at the same time, you bring such a deep thoughtfulness that, that allows, you know, that that lands you in that gray. But I think it's such a valuable position to be taking at the moment. And thank you so much for sharing all of that with us. 00:47:53:21 - 00:48:01:00 Speaker 3 I appreciate that. I really enjoyed this conversation. I'm looking forward to the other episodes coming out soon and again, staying open to the conversation. 00:48:01:01 - 00:48:17:21 Speaker 1 Wonderful. Thank you, Holly, and thank you to our listeners. Thanks for joining us. Hope you enjoyed our conversation. Come back for the next one in a month's time. And so until then, be well and stay curious. 00:48:17:23 - 00:48:26:17 Speaker 1 Looking for free resources and training in the areas of trauma counseling and mental health. Be sure to check out our website at. 00:48:26:19 - 00:48:27:15 Speaker 1 Institute.