Narrator: [00:00:00] This is the Counseling Insights podcast, a podcast to help you develop your own insights and practices as you listen to Vicki Enns connect with counselors and helping professionals about their work, their passions, and their strategies. Vicki: Welcome to our 50th episode of the Counseling Insights podcast. My name is Vicki Enns, and I am your host. It's been four and a half years and 50 conversations. For this milestone, I took some time to listen back to a number of favorites, and I've chosen a few clips to re-share. So this show is a curated serving of nuggets from the past. These are conversations I still remember. When I spoke with these guests, something grabbed me, I was inspired, or they opened up a new way of looking at something, even if it was familiar. So from four different episodes, one for each of the first four years, I've chosen portions of these memorable conversations to highlight a part of what these [00:01:00] stellar guests had to share that I think are worth hearing again. I hope you enjoy it. Of my four highlighted guests today, the first three are each trainers with the Crisis and Trauma Resource Institute, as well as professionals doing their own thing in their communities. The fourth guest is someone external to CTRI, who I had the privilege of meeting through the podcast. The first clip is from an early one, episode six in August of 2022, with Galia Chatterton. In this conversation, we were exploring Galia's approach to working experientially. For example, including a somatic or a body awareness focus within trauma healing work. What I love about so many of the guests who join me on the podcast is they are great storytellers, and they share generously tangible examples of their topic. Galia does this here. She brings to life the idea of slowing things down in our counseling work [00:02:00] and inviting someone to tune into what they are truly feeling in the moment. This is a step that gets talked about a lot, but the real point and nuance of it is often missed. So have a listen Galya: I had a client who was thanking me very effusively, uh, for helping her. Mm-hmm. And, you know, being thanked usually feels quite nice. Right. And in that moment, uh, it didn't feel nice. Mm. I actually felt some, uh, discomfort. Patricia: Mm-hmm. Galya: Almost a little bit of a kind of an uneasy, squeezy feeling inside me. Mm. And so that prompted me to ask the client, you know, "As you're thanking me, what are you noticing inside yourself?" Mm-hmm. "What's happening for you?" And actually, she was feeling very uncomfortable. Patricia: Oh. Mm-hmm. Galya: [00:03:00] And when we explored a little, she realized she was having the thought, "Oh, I'm a burden. I'm a burden on Galia." Mm. "This is so hard. This must be so hard for her to have to deal with me." Patricia: Mm. Galya: Mm. And so she was thanking me so effusively for, and I'm doing air quotes here- "dealing with her," right? Right. Because she must be such a burden. And she hadn't even, like- Patricia: Right ... Galya: and this is a pretty good example, I think, of bringing- Right ... slowing things down enough to bring up more information that is- Mm ... stored and present, but not conscious. Vicki: Right. Galya: And so she hadn't consciously realized that she was f- walking around, as it turned out, not just with me, but all the time, feeling like she was a burden on people, that she was so awful that it- Right created d- this, this difficulty, you know? Right. This burden for others. And [00:04:00] bringing that up to consciousness and continuing to slow down also gave us the opportunity to create an experience where that could shift. Right. Where I could say to her, "Oh, you feel like this is difficult for me." Angola: Mm-hmm. " Galya: Like you're a burden. Oh, just look at my face. Read me." Angola: Mm-hmm. Galya: Because as an aside, I've discovered that people who have experienced trauma, especially relational trauma, tend to be extremely good at reading- Right ... our cues non-verbals. Yes. Right? Vicki: Yeah, yeah. Galya: So I basically just invited her. Yeah. "Okay, read me." Yeah. Because I, of course- Right was not feeling at all like she was a burden. I was so glad to be with her and supporting her. Right. Mm-hmm. Right? So when she looked at my face, she could... and my eyes, she could see that. Yeah. Patricia: Yeah. Galya: And so [00:05:00] that was the different experience, right? Yeah, yeah. Where she could actually look at me with permission- Vicki: Right Galya: and see, "Oh- Mm-hmm ... I'm not awful." Vicki: Right. Galya: Mm-hmm. "She wants to be with me." Yeah. "I'm okay." Vicki: Right. And the fact that you... That is a lovely example, and the fact that you, like you said, a big part of that, I think, is slowing things down and really by, through verb- like giving permission g- or extending that invitation, um, allowed, like you say, those pieces that are rumbling along at the same time, but we may not be tu- like that she wasn't tuning into. That happens to all of us, right? But then having that opportunity to, to listen. But then all, as you say, when she read- when she, when she readed you when she read you. Um, um, I'm imagining then- Mm-hmm ... you know, that, I'm appreciating how the... I think I just wanna really underline the importance of slowing things down. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I think we often are moving so quickly, right? And so we [00:06:00] need that time and space, and maybe even a little bit of s- verbal silence to allow, for her to allow... I would imagine as she looked at you and read you, 'cause part of that reading is through her, through her gut, through her bo- like, what she would then pick up from you. Mm-hmm. But I would imagine that might have felt a little, maybe that felt a little confusing to her. She had... It probably took her a few moments to make sense of that, and, you know, so part of the slowing down is to provide all that time, yeah? Galya: Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Beautifully put. It's true. And so yeah, having that spaciousness, which sometimes I'll verbally reinforce, right? Like- Yeah ... "We're not in a rush here." Yeah. "Take your time." If someone gives- Most always, yeah ... what seems like a fast answer, which sometimes happens, right? Vicki: Mm-hmm, Galya: mm-hmm. I might invite, "Okay, so just feel in and see if there's any other parts of you that have different- Vicki: Mm. Galya: Mm-hmm ... feelings here, or see if there's anything else happening or..." Yeah. And, uh, and [00:07:00] I guess another important piece there is also, as the helper, as the therapist, continuing to pay attention- So I'm reading her as she's reading me, right? Yeah. Vicki: Mm-hmm. Galya: Because sometimes for some clients, taking in care, which is what's happening in that moment, right, I'm caring for her, can also feel a bit threatening- Vicki: Mm-hmm Galya: if- Right. Vicki: Yeah ... Galya: if the people that we've experienced in our lives as caregivers can also be dangerous. Vicki: Right. Galya: So- Vicki: Yeah ... Galya: um, and then if that does happen, if I read kind of an aversive or a pull away, then taking that space that you were referring to, to really feel in and notice what's happening there, too. Vicki: Right. Yeah. Galya: And they're f- and they're... And we can do exactly the same thing again, right? Creating an experience around [00:08:00] noticing, oh, I h- this fear comes up, and actually this is okay Vicki: I love how embodied Galya is in this conversation, that in her tone and pacing as she talks, she is illustrating the beautiful spaciousness she's inviting us all to bring into our counseling conversations. One more small segment from Galya. A little later in our chat, she explains more about making choices as the counselor of how to balance listening and following the client wherever they go with inviting or leading a shift of focus back to stay with something, such as tuning into how her client felt in her gut and her body. Here she is Galya: I think it is a bit of a balance, right? Because- Yeah ... I likely wouldn't be that persistent with a brand-new client- Right ... that I'm in a first session with, right? Right. I [00:09:00] maybe need to have learned them enough to know- Mm ... where the windows of their tolerance is. Vicki: Right. So you need time for some of that- And- reading back and forth you were talking about before. Mm-hmm, yeah. Time to get to know each other and understand. Galya: Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. Galya: Um, but when it's something that is a positive experience, then- Mm ... re- and the defenses are getting in the way, or another way of saying that is, like, parts of self, um, that feel a little scared- Angola: Mm-hmm Galya: or have learned in the past that it's not safe, might block or minimize, or e- To just stay right there with the client, and just gently and pers- and persistently- Patricia: Mm ... Galya: just come around again [00:10:00] to that positive piece. Patricia: Mm. Galya: Right? Patricia: Okay. Galya: So in a way, it's like not getting caught up in the defenses. I'm not, like, I'm not even saying, "Oh, you're minimizing," or y- right? Patricia: Right. Galya: It's like just coming back around again, and as you take in the care that you see in my eyes, what happens for you inside? Mm-hmm. Patricia: Mm-hmm. Vicki: So beautifully described. My second highlighted conversation is with another amazing storyteller, Tom Walker. This is from episode 21 in November of 2023. We are exploring the topic of high-intensity self-care, and I love the juxtaposition of ideas that Tom brings to the table. He speaks so gently and openly about his own personal experience of multiple layers of trauma growing up, and how he has also learned to be so attuned to his own body, emotions, and reactivity to protect [00:11:00] himself. And he shares how he learned to connect the skills he cultivated through street fighting, turned into professional boxing, to serve his own healing. Now as a counselor, he uses these same skills to keep himself sustained in his work, and open to support others. So have a listen. We're jumping in where Tom is describing what high-intensity self-care means to him. Tom: Well, for me, it's, um, it, it's... I, I've lived a fairly intense life, and sometimes when I'm- Mm-hmm um, uh, when I'm doing- Things that aren't as intense. Um, they, they, they, they're, they're not, they might help my body stay in shape, but they're not working with what I'm trying to get rid of or- Ah. Mm-hmm ... they're not working with my, my demons, if you will. And- Vicki: Mm. Yeah ... Tom: and, and don't get me wrong, [00:12:00] I, I, I've come a long way and la, la, la, but- but what I w- what I really- focus on is, is how do I empty, I call it my clinical terminology is my shit can when it starts to get too full. Vicki: Right. Tom: Um, h- how, how do I get rid of that? Yeah. And for me, that's, that might be doing some intense, um Hitting the heavy bag with focus on some of the anger that might be- Right ... directed. Like if, if, if I'm pissed off at... 'Cause I've been working with someone who h- was hurt or- Vicki: Mm. Mm ... Tom: physically, psychologically, se- sexually. I, I, I, I get rid of that stuff. I don't need it in my space- Right. Vicki: Yeah ... Tom: if you will. Yeah. Right. And, and so, so I vent outwards. Um- Vicki: Mm-hmm. [00:13:00] Mm-hmm ... Tom: when I'm doing different types of, of fairly high intense, uh, calisthenics, c- cardio, core exercises, it's also a great way of, of really getting to know my body, but also working parts of my body that, that might be trigger points, that might carry a lot more trauma- Patricia: Ah, okay. Yeah ... Tom: because of my history. Patricia: Right. Tom: And, and so when I'm working out, I'm, I'm focused. I'm... And, and, and sort of trying to release, um, th- and my body tells me. Yeah. There's aches, there's pains, there's- Narrator: Right ... Tom: there's different ways. Hmm. Um, or somatically when I, you know, when I get... If there's a threat response, I... It usually comes from certain places. Um, and so- Right ... or if I've been triggered throughout the day because someone came and, you know, was [00:14:00] physical with me without permission or- Vicki: Ah, yeah ... Tom: you know. Um, and th- it was loving, it was caring, it was... But I... But it's a way of me getting rid of that so that I, I don't need to- Vicki: Right Tom: to- Vicki: Hmm ... Tom: be with that- Yeah ... or have any resentments- Yeah ... toward or- Vicki: Right ... Tom: I c- I can focus on that. Yeah. And that might sound like a lot of work. Um, it's actually not. Vicki: Yeah. Um, Tom: not as much work as sitting in our... and perseverating. Vicki: Right. Tom: That's shitty committee. Yeah. And perseverating- Vicki: Right ... Tom: on how- Vicki: Right ... Tom: how could they have done that, why did they do that, or- Vicki: Right. Ah, yeah ... Tom: whatever the situation is- Right. Vicki: Yeah ... Tom: um, for me. Yeah. Vicki: That- Tom: Um, why is my life like this? Like- Vicki: Yeah, yeah ... Tom: that's a lot of work. Vicki: That's a... Yeah, that's a lot of energy. Yeah. Tom: Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. Tom: Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. And I can really hear, you know, when you... That was so interesting when you talked about [00:15:00] li- like, I can hear you listen to your body and, and it really links back to what you were saying before in terms of... can hear that self-awareness. Like, just you know your story, you know what you've been through- Uh-huh ... and you, you really- You can feel and hear in your body how you carry those memories maybe, and, and- Mm-hmm ... I, I'm, I'm fascinated by what you said just a few moments, moments ago, and I, I think I understood you to say that sometimes when you're working out or doing something, you may, you may focus in on a particular area because you know that that part of your body holds some memory- Uh-huh if I understood you correctly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Would you, is there, is there an example of that you could share just to help people understand that l- link of how, how we can listen to our body and it can connect for us to... And how when we work out in a par- or if we move with our body, we can help that part of our body release a little bit. Yeah. Tom: Yeah. It's, um, it was- I, I [00:16:00] guess a couple weeks ago. Um- Mm ... I have a really nice relationship with a man who is, um, who's a, a hugger, and he's touchy, and he's- Oh, Vicki: yeah. Mm-hmm. Tom: And, and, and, and, and w- like, I'm straight, but... And so is he, but- ... we're, we're connected. We're- Vicki: Yeah, yeah ... we, Tom: and we, we're not afraid to show affection and stuff like that. Vicki: Mm-hmm, yeah. Tom: And, and, and I, I ca- I've reminded him, "Don't, don't, don't just startle me from behind." Right. Right? Or, "Don't give me a gra- give me a hug from behind." And- Mm ... and the other day he, he was in a space, and he, he needed some connection of some kind. It was interesting. And so he, he came, and he put his hand on the back part of my, my, my lower back. And, and that's a trigger for me immediately. Ah, Vicki: okay, yeah. Tom: And, and so I, I, I had a threat response. Vicki: Right. Tom: And, um, then h- [00:17:00] then he said, "Hey, man. How's it going?" And da, da, da, da. And I, I, I was like, "Okay, it's him." And I, I was grounding myself and, and doing all the work I need doing. And then I gently said to him, "Dude, how many times have I told you? Don't, don't do the back thing." Right. Vicki: Yeah. Tom: Um, and, um, and, and it was... And, and he, he apologized. And but it, it was, it was resonating. And so, so it, it gets... It's like, it's like there's a space that now my back is just talking to me. Angola: Ah, yeah. Tom: And it feels unsafe, and it feels like- Mm. And I know it's not safe- or it's not unsafe. I know all that stuff. And- Angola: Right ... Tom: and I, I can get through the day be- Right ... before I get to a place. But at that day it was really resonating for some reason, so I- Patricia: Mm ... Tom: I had an opportunity to go down to the gym, um, where I work. And I [00:18:00] have, I'm blessed for that. Yeah. And at home I have a heavy bag right behind me where I Vicki: work. Yeah. Tom: So it's quite, it's quite funny. I actually- Vicki: Right ... Tom: if you'd done that you would have seen the heavy bag and if I was at home right now. But, but so I- Yeah ... I went down, and, and, um, I did some high core exercises, some work o- a- a- just around releasing. Yeah. And visualizing releasing. Even though I was- Ah, okay working that part of the body, I was also releasing it. Patricia: Mm-hmm. Tom: And some of the core exercises, like someone was watching me and was like- H- how do you do that for so long? Uh, Patricia: and- Tom: Yeah ... so like I was in a plank position for about six minutes, and then I did some- Wow. ... some... Yeah, like it, it's, it's, a- and then I did some other, some movement- Patricia: Right Tom: and a core exercise. Um, some, some stuff that for my lower back, just to sort of release and- Patricia: Mm ... Tom: and [00:19:00] but at the end of it, it was a great workout, but I felt safe again. Patricia: Ah. Tom: I felt- Patricia: Yeah. Yeah ... Tom: like- Patricia: Yeah ... Tom: I had some control. Patricia: Right. Tom: Yeah. Um, and I also reminded myself that I, I, I, I- Mm ... can protect myself now, and- Patricia: Mm Tom: I'm o- okay, and that's where the intensity stuff is also important to me. Patricia: Ah, Tom: okay. That's probably why I became a, a professional boxer- Patricia: Yeah. ... Tom: um, at one point in my life. Um, I've newspaper articles from street fighter to boxer, and so- ... you know, as a, as a kid be- because of my moving 28 times and being poor and stuff, we had to fight. Angola: Yeah. Vicki: So- Angola: Yeah ... Tom: so- Angola: Yeah ... Tom: boxing was what sort of focused me. Vicki: In Tom's stories, you hear how deeply he has worked on his own healing and how he brings that deep knowing into every interaction with those he supports. The third segment [00:20:00] is from Patricia Haberman. This is episode 35, March of 2025. Patricia is talking about her concept of carrying a toolbox and a bundle. As a Métis woman and a counselor steeped in both Western academic learning as well as indigenous cultural teachings, she shares some of her journey of finding her way to carry these together Patricia: I recognize that I can, I'm, I'm able to walk in both worlds- Vicki: Mm-hmm ... Patricia: so to speak, right? Mm-hmm. From, from my, from my indigenous ancestry and to my European ancestry. Vicki: Right, yeah. Patricia: So I acknowledge, I acknowledge that in all the places and spaces where I go. Um, a- and also that I'm still learning. Vicki: Right, yeah. Patricia: Mm-hmm. Vicki: Yeah, and that you're carrying all these parts with you all at the same time. Patricia: Yeah. Vicki: [00:21:00] Yeah. Patricia: Yeah. And- Yeah, yeah ... Vicki: and if I'm, if I'm tracking correctly just your, your path, it sounds like, um, t- then you were in a chapter of your life where you were continuing to learn about yourself as you're describing, and really deepen this understanding of your own history, your family history, and just your relationship with that. Um, as well as it sounds like continuing to get more involved on a work side, a professional side of things in the counseling world again, and where you were working with... I assume you left the factory at some point and were- Yes ... and were, um, although doing all those other... Started working with youth and their families, and in some teaching and some counseling, and maybe in the addictions realm. And, and so I can see, I can i- imagine then how that was just building as you just described, kind of walking in these two worlds, um, as you also develop this, uh, professional identity, if that [00:22:00] fits as a way to put it. Mm-hmm. All those things were kind of growing at the same time, yeah. Patricia: Yeah. Yeah. A, a lot of things, a lot of things were coming at me. A lot of things that I had to, that I had to process and figure out and actually sit with. Vicki: Yeah. Patricia: And pause. I needed to sit with and pause. And it actually wasn't until, um, I was facilitating, co-facilitating a training in Vancouver, and I had an aha moment, and a participant, um, who was in the, the certificate pro- Big Windham certificate program had an aha moment as well, which was so beautiful because it, it, it just sort of solidified what I'd been trying to put into words- Regarding my journey with my, with my Western academia- Mm-hmm right? That Eurocentric, those, those pieces, right? Counseling modalities and all those, [00:23:00] all those things. And also the, the, the sacred items that I have received throughout my journey of exploring my indigenous ancestry, which has created my bundle. Angola: Right. Yeah. Patricia: Yeah. So that sort of leads to I sat there and I thought, "Okay, we often talk about what's in your toolbox"- Vicki: Right Patricia: what's in your toolkit, right? So then I was able to say, "Okay, I walk with a toolbox and a bundle. I carry them both." Vicki: Mm-hmm. Patricia: And that sat really well with me. It felt really good. I, I didn't have to decide which direction I was going to go. I was able to walk with both and carry both. Vicki: Right. Patricia: If that makes sense. Vicki: Absolutely. Absolutely. And as you were starting to say, it sounds like you, this kind of [00:24:00] came as you were facilitating a group. And how did the, how did the participants respond? How did, did that make sense to them? Patricia: Yeah, absolutely. There was a lot of head nodding- Mm-hmm ... and it was like, "Ah, I get that." Um, just being respectful of, of the people who were in the room. Yeah. Um, there was, there was a man in the room who, who put his hand up when I had shared that. I said, "I carry a toolbox and I carry a bundle." And he put his hand up, and he said, "Oh, Patricia, you nailed it." And I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "I get that now, because I spent all these years in university- Vicki: Right Patricia: learning from Western textbooks. As an indigenous man, I carry teachings- Vicki: Right ... Patricia: from my ancestors." Yeah. Right? I, I carry those teachings, and I couldn't figure out how to, how to blend them. And, and these aren't [00:25:00] word for word what he had said, but this- Right. Yeah ... this was the, the premise of what was, what was shared. Um, and he said, "That makes total sense." Vicki: Hmm. " Patricia: I carry a toolbox, and I carry a bundle." Tom: Right. " Patricia: And I can walk and weave them together." Tom: Yeah. That's Patricia: beautiful. So it was a, it was a beautiful, it was a beautiful moment- Yeah ... for all of us, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Vicki: Later in our conversation, Patricia gives some beautiful examples of exploring how to carry both approaches in a trauma healing training, which illustrates the possible dance that has room for all approaches to helping. She's talking here about co-facilitating the Gawidaa Bindigi Program, which is for helpers talking about trauma and grief in their communities. In her story, we get a glimpse into a group conversation that is held and enriched by this combined approach. Patricia: This seems like a silly question, because, uh, in a way, but I, I think, [00:26:00] uh, it would just might be helpful- Sometimes there's no such thing as a silly question. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I believe that, too. Yeah. Vicki: Um, yeah. Be helpful to unpack it a little bit. Like, why do you think it's helpful- Patricia: Okay ... Vicki: to have both the Western... Like, in those rooms, when you're sitting with folks, and like you say, people are maybe sitting together in the muck a little bit, um, what, what is the benefit of having both the Western viewpoint or concepts and, and some of that there alongside, um, the more traditional indigenous ways of healing? Um, like, like, are there times you find that it's helpful to, to lean into one and then lean into the other? Or I, I guess I'm just curious about what is the dance like between these different approaches in the room? Patricia: Mm-hmm. Vicki: Yeah. Patricia: That's interesting you just said dance, because that's- Okay ... that's what I was going to say. It, it is a dance. Vicki: Huh. Patricia: So it, it's so important that- the, the person who you're [00:27:00] co-facilitating with- Vicki: Right ... Patricia: that you do, you know, you form, um, a relationship. You're, you're almost i- you're in a relationship. Vicki: Yeah. Patricia: Right? And to, to be able to do the dance in, in sharing, um, the Western, um, academia parts, one of the things that, one of the things that I wanna share before I fully answer this, that's a loaded question, Becky. I under- I know, I know. That's a loaded question. Yeah. But also, um, one of the things that, that I've noticed is communities are hurting. Vicki: Yeah. Patricia: Communities are hurting. And some of the, some of the sharing that I've heard in the rooms, or you know, one-on-one sharing, [00:28:00] are we just wanna learn how to help people. Right. We wanna learn, we wanna learn some of these things to, to help, to help our people, to help our community. The impacts of trauma, intergenerational trauma, the impacts of grief. You know, um, folks will share, "We didn't even have time to grieve- Angola: Mm ... Patricia: a loss in our community, and there's another one- Right ... and there's another one." It's that continued, right, sustained grief and trauma. So help us. Vicki: Yeah. Patricia: Help us to learn what happens in the brain, in the body. So that's where the Western, that's where the Western pieces come in. Right. The Eurocentric, um, like, the academia pieces, is how trauma affects the brain, how trauma lives in the body. Vicki: Hmm. Patricia: [00:29:00] And exploring, um, again, depending on who you're sitting with, I will often... And, and this is the part of sitting together with folks from different communities. Tell us how your community grieves. Hmm. Vicki: Mm-hmm. Patricia: Share, you know, allowing, allowing time and space and lots of room for folks to talk about their experiences with grieving. Leading, you know, having them lead. Yeah, we know some stuff as co-facilitators, as trainers. Yeah, we know some stuff. People are the experts on their own lives. Angola: Yeah. Patricia: Share with us your stories of what's been helpful for you, right? What, what works, what doesn't work. So then what happens is a beautiful, uh, beautiful conversations [00:30:00] of connection and relationships within the room. "Oh, that's what we do in our community also, and we also do this." Vicki: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Patricia: Right? So it's, it's folks sitting in a space in a circle, at their tables, whatever that looks like, um, and, and really openly, in a raw, I'm gonna use the word raw- Vicki: Yeah, yeah Patricia: in a raw way, um, sharing their experiences. And it's so beautiful that people, um, you know, when you, when you... And I feel like I'm switching gears a lot, but my- Yeah ... my thought bubbles are popping. This is what- Yeah ... I always say when I'm in training, right? Somebody'll share something, I'm like, "Oh, I have a thought bubble." By Friday, people know what a thought bubble is- ... for Patricia. Um, because there are all those [00:31:00] connections in the room, I think that, I think that folks are surprised by the second day, even by the end of the first day, that this isn't the quote, unquote, "typical program" of manual flipping pages. Flipping pages- Right and a manual. Angola: Right. Patricia: Right? Yeah, the manual is jam-packed full of great stuff, and people sitting together and sharing and making connections and building relationships is powerful and beautiful. Vicki: And for our fourth and final conversation, heading back into August of 2024, episode 28. This is Angella Murdoch, Practice Deep Listening Like a Clown. This is a fun conversation, and a tender one. Angella is a circus and movement artist, an aerialist, and most recently, an elder clown named Mabel, working in hospice [00:32:00] settings. One of the many things I loved about talking with Angella is how she connected familiar ideas we might have about clowns, such as breaking rules and being silly, with deep connecting and listening skills that I think we could all learn from. I have two clips of our conversation. This first one, we drop in on Angella describing her work in a palliative care center, and she gives us a lovely lesson in the wisdom of being a clown to foster connection. Angola: The, the most memorable visit from this week is, um, somebody we asked, this is a common question that we ask is, I say that w- we need some help smartening up. 'Cause that's part of it, is w- w- we go in and at the l- we're the lowest in the hierarchy, right? We're this- Right ... we're s- we're stupid. We're just fools. So- Vicki: Yeah. ... Angola: th- that automatically the client is smarter than us- Yeah ... is, you know, um, wiser. They've ha- So, um, yeah. So [00:33:00] this- Mm ... woman, we said, "W- w- what can we do? W- w- what can we do to smarten up?" And, or, um... And she said- Well, to have a g- good life, you can't react to things negatively all the time. And, and you have to watch your reactions. And so for a clown, that's like the biggest gift ever because we are over-reactors. Vicki: Yeah. Angola: So right away we went into this scene where sh- this, the client was directing the scene, and we were like, "How's this?" What? A- and the one clown said, "Oh, I'm sorry, madam, we don't have strawberries today." Like, and the, the clie- uh, the, the other clown was like at a restaurant wanting strawberries. Right. And so the clown really is like, "Oh, my gosh, I have no strawberries," and starts crying and like overreacting. And so the client was able to say, "No, no, no, don't react like that." Yeah. And we go, "Oh, I'm so sorry," like, "Let's try again." Yeah. And then, you know, we tried all these scenarios where it was like, "Well, do you have raspberries?" [00:34:00] "Yes, we have." "Well, okay, everything's fine." And, and then, and then the client was like, "Yes, that's much better. You ask questions. Find alternatives. Don't-" Wow. You know, "Don't pity- don't be a pity party," is basically what the, the point of it was. Right. Yeah, Vicki: yeah. Angola: Um, so to be able to really play up their suggestions, the client's suggestion, is just such a, a gift, and that's just one really memorable moment from Tuesday's work. And- Yeah ... so, so once we, we, uh, w- we do a lot of song on the, the hospice. We try to pretty much play a song in each person's room. The, the visits last in between five and seven minutes. And yeah, we're in their room. We go to their room. We knock on their door. We ask them if they want a visit today. Even if they don't want a visit, it's still, we still count that as something because- Right they had autonomy to say, "No, I don't feel like a visit." Patricia: Yeah. Angola: Where they don't have that ever, right? It's if the ho- No ... if the nurse is coming [00:35:00] in. Very little choice. Yeah. Very little choices, so we give them choice. Um- Yeah ... and we, we rarely get denied. Yeah. Yeah. You know, even, even when, like we, we also get the sort of like who's on precautions and where people are at, like if they're, they're, um- Uh, if they're, they're p- progressing quickly to the end of life, um, we, you know, we, we get the lowdown on, on how everybody's doing, and even sometimes the head nurse will say, "Eh, I don't know about them. Like, they, they, they may not want a visit." And we're like, "Well, we'll try." Yeah. And we've had a, a ton of those scenarios where it ends in, like, all of us laughing uncontrollably, and- Yeah ... you know, it seemed like- What a gift ... they were in a bad mood. Yeah. But yeah. Vicki: In the next part of the conversation, Angella goes on to explore the tender listening she does as a clown while people are navigating the deep grief of dying, and she gives us a whole different view of the concept of being [00:36:00] client-focused as Mabel, listening with curious questions or just paying attention to simple actions. Angola: That's the thing about this type of clowning. It's very tender, and- Mm ... people don't tend to think of clowns as tender, but- Right ... it, it's so client-focused. It's really- Yeah ... we go in there, and we listen to the energy in the room, and the, the, um, the client, and sure, we've gone into a room where they're very upset. They're dying. Yeah. So they know it. Um, and, and they just want someone to hold their hand and allow them to cry. Patricia: Right. Angola: Mm-hmm. And that's what we do. Yeah. We hold their hand, and w- and we say, "You know, it's okay to cry." And we might just be there for five minutes with them crying, and we're just holding their hand. Vicki: Yeah. Angola: And it seems, you know, un-clownish, but that is what the- Mm ... client needed that day. Vicki: Right. Angola: Yeah. Vicki: Yeah, yeah. Angola: Um, so yeah, we, we [00:37:00] do, yeah, uh, uh- Yeah ... we, there's lots of tears, which is- Yeah, yeah ... you know, not what people think, but they're- Yeah ... w- yeah. Vicki: Yeah. Well, and you used that phrase, so I, I want to ask you a little more about that, client-focused. And, and, um, and I, uh, um, I know when we... Maybe can you say a little more about that? 'Cause I remember that, that was so interesting to me when we talked about this before. And, um, you've already, earlier you talked about, you know, a little bit of the difference of, of, um, more theatrical clown, a performing clown, and, and therapeutic clown. But I, I was struck by when you talked to me about this before, you know, that kind of the biggest thing is that, that is this client-focused piece, and I think that's what a lot of our listeners will, might be surprised to h- to see the parallels, right, in all the different ways we might have a, uh, a counseling or, or supportive hat. Right. Um, so yeah, can you talk a little bit about how, what that looks like, this notion of being client-focused or client-led? Angola: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. So, like, even the [00:38:00] clients sometimes need to know that that's what we're doing. For instance, someone might say, "Okay, well, what's the show? What do you do?" Right. You know? Yeah. And we're like, "Oh, no. We don't have a show. No. We're not good enough to do a show. We're just here to visit you." Yeah. And, you know, and then, and that would start, like, "Oh. Oh, okay." And then w- you know, client focus is, like, all the questions are, uh, often it starts with a question. Mm-hmm. And, and we stay away from, "How are you today?" Because- Patricia: Ah, yeah ... Angola: I'm not okay today, I'm dying. Yeah. You know? Right. Patricia: And Angola: so, Patricia: so it's not like, "How are you?" It's like, um, things we typically ask are, Angola: um, like, how are they feeding you? Uh-huh. Like, is the food okay in here? Right. And then, and then that, you know, "Oh, yes, and they, they're really great," or, "No," and then, like, "Well, what do you usually like eating? Do, are you a big c- someone who cooks?" Right. And then, and that can get them rolling- Right ... on, on that. And it's, so yeah, the client, it's, it's all about listening to them and what [00:39:00] they need. Maybe they don't need to be asked questions. Um, you know, maybe- They need, they need, um, w- one thing I will admit is Mabel's, Mabel just falls in love over and over again. And, and, um, she- Got a Vicki: multi-broken heart, does she? Angola: Yeah. She, she loves a silver fox. Vicki: Oh, yes. Angola: And, you know, and so, like, one of the tools that Mabel has is, is, is complimenting people on their smile because- Yeah ... uh, you know, I love smiles, and, and, and, and they're so beautiful, and you can see- Mm ... their life in their smile when- Yeah you know, when they're at that stage. So, uh, like, you know, we, uh, Mabel flirts a little bit, and one of the games that she plays is, like, "If you would take me out on a date, and I'm not saying that you, you're, that you will. I'm not gonna assume that you will, but if so, where would you take me? Like, what kind of restaurant would we go to?" Right. And, you know, get them just- Mm ... [00:40:00] sort of silly and- Vicki: Yeah ... Angola: um, but yeah, that, about the client-focused piece is it is just that. It's just y- it's improv. We have no idea- Yeah ... what we're gonna do when we enter the room. We don't know if we're gonna play a song. We don't know if we're gonna dance. We don't know if we'll talk a lot. Will the client talk a lot? Vicki: Right. Angola: And every single visit is totally different, and- Yeah ... it's because it's, it's driven by the client. Patricia: Yeah. Yeah. That's really fascinating. Vicki: Oh. Well, I was, now that you said that, my next question seems kind of, um, silly. It, it, in the sense- Yeah ... I was gonna ask you, so I'm still gonna ask you in the sense of, um, w- 'cause I know you have just so many great stories or there's just so many different things that happen, but I'm, I'm curious, you know, what's a visit that comes to mind that maybe just surprised you or took a turn? And from, from what you just said, I mean, every, you never know what's gonna happen, so maybe the answer is every single one. But just curious- Right ... if there's, um, another story that's standing out for you [00:41:00] this morning. Angola: Yeah. Um, yeah, and it was on Tuesday where- Vicki: Mm-hmm ... Angola: um, we were told that the client didn't speak any English, which is no problem. Vicki: Mm-hmm. Angola: Um, 'cause clowns go beyond language. And, um- So we went in and thought, "Okay, yeah, this client's not gonna speak to us," and maybe, um, they were eating, and I thought, "Oh, maybe this isn't, this isn't gonna work or something." I mean, I never really think it's not gonna work, but, uh, you know, it's like, it's, it's how is this gonna go? Right. And then automatically, he brought up his hands and started doing these, like, twinkly fingers. And so one of our tools is mirroring, if, if a client- Ah ... does something we mirror. So we did these twinkly fingers, and then he did... For five minutes, there was n- n- no words ever spoken. We did, like, sort of a mirroring Tai Chi t- thing. Like, it wasn't- Oh ... Tai Chi, I don't think. Patricia: Wow. Yeah. Angola: But, and, and [00:42:00] it, he, the client was just loved that we were mirroring him, and- Yeah ... um, y- and yeah, he was dancing with his arms, and he was giggling, and then we- Oh ... would giggle. And y- yeah, we just had this full visit, uh, like a full five-minute visit of just mirroring this, this man. And, and then when we left, he just- Mm ... kept saying, "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you." Oh. Vicki: I hope you enjoyed these stories. Thank you for listening in on our 50th episode, and thank you all for listening all along the way. So come on back in a month's time for the next one, and until then, be well and stay curious. Narrator: Looking for free resources and training in the areas of trauma, counseling, and mental health? Be sure to check out our website at [00:43:00] www.ctrinstitute.com