Speaker: [00:00:00] This is the Counseling Insights podcast, a podcast to help you develop your own insights and practices as you listen to Vicki Enns connect with counselors and helping professionals about their work, their passions, and their strategies. Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of the Counseling Insights podcast. My name is Vicki Enns, and I am your host. And today I'm here with Melanie Bazan and Heather Woodward. Melanie is the director of indigenous services at Crisis and Trauma Resource Institute. She has a passion for decolonizing social systems and draws from her Métis heritage and works alongside a traditional elder to incorporate indigenous ways of being and learning into her training and for guiding staff in the organization's reconciliation journey. Melanie also provides land-based therapy with Little Steps Wellness Farm. Heather Woodward holds a master of social work degree grounded in indigenous knowledges and [00:01:00] has over 25 years of direct experience in the helping profession. She spent the first half of her career working directly with children, youth, and families with a focus on the impacts of violence and trauma. Currently, she specializes in holistic wellness and healing for helping professionals working on vicarious trauma and transforming this to healing, growth, and resilience. It has been this journey that has led her down the path towards reconciliation In today's conversation, we give you a taste of the new workshop, Reconciliation in the Workplace: Meaningful Action for Teams. Mel and Heather talk about the backstory and intent of this new offering from Crisis and Trauma Resource Institute. They describe some of the topics they find most important, such as looking at history and colonization, as well as locating ourselves in this ongoing story, and they both emphasize the central focus and experience of reconciliation in this workshop as building [00:02:00] relationships. Speaker 3: So welcome to you both. Speaker 4: Hi. Hello. Speaker 2: Yeah, so happy to have you here, and we're going to be exploring together, um, a f- pretty new workshop that both of you have had a, a strong hand in and been part of developing, Reconciliation in the Workplace: Meaningful Action for Teams. And so we'll get into that in lots of details in just a second, but I thought first we should just hear a little bit from each of you. Um, and may- Melanie, maybe I'll start with you, just 'cause you've, you've been a guest on the podcast before, so listeners may have virtually met you in that way. Although they wouldn't have met you visually- Right ... 'cause at that time- That's right ... we weren't, uh, recording video, so it's nice that they might be able to fully meet you now. Um, but it's been a few years since, since that conversation, so I wondered if you just wanted to say a bit about what have some of been the highlights in, uh, in your work since that time- Since that time ... in the last few years, 'cause I know lots- Speaker 4: Yeah ... Speaker 2: has been going on. Speaker 4: One of the- ... things, I guess, on my mind now, and what I was just [00:03:00] working on before coming here, uh, in a frazzled state- Yeah uh, we are working on writing a book, uh, for CTRI- Mm ... and you're a part of that- ... so that's really exciting. Yikes. Um- Speaker 2: Spat my water Speaker 4: out. It's, yeah. I was like, "That's right." Yeah, it's been really fun- Yeah ... and it's all about decolonizing our helping practice with activities for helpers, and so I'm- Yeah ... so excited, uh, to get that out and share it with others. Speaker 2: It's really great. I'm looking forward to it too. Awesome. And Heather, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thanks for having me. I know you're, you are new to being a guest here, but you're certainly not new to Crisis and Trauma Resource Institute. No. Um, just tell us a bit about how you got connected with CTRI and your, and your journey there. Speaker 3: Oh, wow. Okay, I'll try to give you the short version. The short version. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, one of the other, uh, trainers, uh, Wilma, I'm not sure if she's ever been on one of the podcasts before- Yeah ... but Wilma and I sat on a board together, and we were in this board and sharing conversation, and she's like, "You would be a great facilitator." Yeah. "You should come, you know, apply with CTRI." And, and so it kinda started the ball rolling, and, uh, [00:04:00] positions in my life had changed job-wise, and so I reached out to Nathan, who again, I knew from another world when we were doing Helping Work, and so that's kinda where it started. And it's al- Okay ... I always kind of share the fun story 'cause when I had that little interview with Nathan, he's like, "Well, we don't really have any work for you right now, but we'll keep you on the back burner." And I was like, "Okay." And then I got a call, it's like, "What are you doing next week?" "Can you go to Nunavut?" And I was like, "Yes, yes, I can." Yeah. And, and it kinda started from there. So yeah, so definitely been around CTRI, um, for I, since 2017, 2018. Yeah. Great. And so when I'm not doing this, I have my private practice where I do one-on-one work with helping professionals, people who are in high-stress, high-demand, high-crisis work. So not just, uh, frontline workers like us within that social service realm, but like, um, people, firefighters, um, police officers. I have farmers. Mm-hmm. Um, I was like, "Yes, farmers have very high-stress, high-demand work." Yeah. And accountants, lawyers, nurses. I'm really trying to promote that wellness because- Yeah uh, what I've learned, and I'll probably share a little bit about it today, is- [00:05:00] Taking care of ourselves is so incredibly important and, and we tend to give and give and give in this field- Yeah ... and, and it impacts us. So that's why I do that, and when I'm not working, I hang out with my dog. Speaker 2: Great. Speaker 3: And my two kids who are kind of empty nesting and, but they're still living at home. Yeah. So it's me and my dog- That's, that's time ... and my husband. Yeah. Great. Speaker 2: Good. Welcome here, full face. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's dive into this topic. Um, I'm excited about this workshop. So again, the title, Reconciliation in the Workplace: Meaningful Action for Teams. Um, first, let's get a little bit of the backstory. Tell- Yeah ... where did this workshop come from? Speaker 4: Sure. So before I started with CTRI, um, obviously CTRI has been on a reconciliation journey for quite some time. Um, and part of that was working with other facilitators on offering a workshop for others, um, based on, you know, the work that CTRI was doing. And so a few folks got together, started working on this, and realized, "Wow, this is [00:06:00] really tough work to do." Yeah. Yeah. It's tough to put everything into- Yeah ... you know, one workshop. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 4: Um, and even then, you can't. There's no- And get it Speaker 3: right, right? Speaker 4: And get it right. Yeah. There's no real way to put everything in there. Um, and so- Speaker 2: And it's a constantly changing piece. Speaker 4: It's constantly- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: evolving- Yeah. ... changing. Yeah. And so, uh- Yeah ... the, the work had begun with a few folks, and then when I started, it was kind of passed on to me to, uh, finish off. And so a few of us, you know, Heather helped. Um, we had other facilitators helping. We had, um, folks coming around the table to review and work with the content. And, um, then we kind of landed on this one-day workshop- um, which I hope, I hope, um, gets to the, the root of what we were hoping to do is, you know, have people just reflect on their own journeys. Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. Speaker 4: And how that, that journey impacts their community around them and also their workplace. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and that, you saying that, I, I wanted to ask, [00:07:00] um, was there a particular reason... Like, right in the title, it talks about meaningful action for teams, and so kinda wanting to aim it, think of it as, like, organizations or staff teams or groups that are coming. Was that kind of part of the- Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I think- ... thinking? Any of this work cannot be done in isolation. I think we have- Yeah ... to start with ourselves, right? It really starts there, but we are relational, and we're all interconnected, and so we are part of communities, we're part of teams, we're part of organizations. Yeah. And so that work goes beyond. It ripples out from ourselves on, out- Yeah ... out, um, to those teams and those communities, so. Speaker 3: Yeah, I would, I would agree, and, and, and we can't do it separate. We always try, but you can't. And so when you start with yourself, it just- Yeah ... rolls into your work. And then, and how is work influencing you? And I don't know the stat. If we had some of the folks from Achieve over here, they would know, but we spend so much time at work. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: Right? So- Yeah ... being able to build that into our workplaces- Right um, I think helps our personal lives. Right. And when we do the work within our personal lives, it shows [00:08:00] up at work. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: Right? So it's that, it's that interconnection. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and it's occurring to me while I listen to the two of you that, um, and I'm curious in, in the... I know it's fairly new, but you've... it's been delivered a few times, and so I'm curious if you're finding that are groups showing up as teams? 'Cause as I listen to you, I'm thinking that's actually, uh, makes so much sense if, if, if then people are here together in their relationships- Yeah ... in their work relationships while they're exploring this. Have you been finding that, people showing up in groups or whole bunch of different ways, Speaker 3: probably? Well, we've rolled it out three times. Yeah. Every time has been extremely different. I'm sure. I'm sure. Um, so yes, to answer that question simply, yes, there is some, some teams showing up. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Um, it appears as though it's, you know, maybe two or three people from the team coming- Right to gather the knowledge and to- Yeah ... bring it back. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: Um, I've, I've done it with a private organization as well. Yeah. And again, you can't have all your staff in- Right ... some of these corporations, so they're trying to bring some of the folks- Mm-hmm ... who might [00:09:00] be more, uh, in that leadership role or management role. Um, but definitely, uh, there's been a mix, and then there's a lot of- Yeah ... just individuals coming- Right ... out of their own curiosity. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 3: Um, really wanting to figure things out for themselves and how they can do better and- Yeah ... bring it to work. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's shown up- Speaker 2: All kinds Speaker 3: of different ways in, in all different ways. Yeah. That's great. Uh, watching the dynamics for the work is, been interesting- Yeah ... 'cause everyone's- It's real- it can be uncomfortable Speaker 2: I'm sure. Speaker 3: Yeah Yeah In a really good way. I say that- Yeah ... not a scary way But in a really good way. Yeah It's that uncomfortable, like, growth is happening- Yeah change, shift is happening. Mm-hmm. And it's been really cool to see it roll out in, uh, the three times that I've got to facilitate it, so. Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think, too, the, the first time we ever facilitated it, we had, um, a, a pipe ceremony as part of the opening of this new workshop, and I think that was so meaningful. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 4: Um, and so yes, it's different every time. Uh, but I, I felt like that was so important to start in that way- Speaker 3: Mm, mm-hmm ... Speaker 4: to do this work in- Yeah ... [00:10:00] in the right way. Um, and in that specific one, too, it was co-facilitated with- Yeah ... yourself and JC, and- Yeah ... uh, just seeing that dynamic of the two facilitators- Mm uh, modeling what reconciliation looks like. Yeah. Right? Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and- So amazing ... JC and I are both on our, in our journeys, and, and, and who we are and where we come from. And I'm watching it kind of weave and- Mm-hmm ... and connect and fold and, and yeah, it's, it's pretty- Yeah ... it's pretty amazing, I think. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. Mm-hmm. Well, and I, I think you've both started to t- speak to this already, but do you wanna say a little bit about, like, what is your main hope or goal with this workshop? What do you, what do you kinda hope people will leave with? I know that's a big question. Maybe too- Mm. Speaker 3: Yeah ... too general. Do you Speaker 2: want me to Speaker 4: start, or you wanna go? Speaker 3: Uh, I can, I can, I can start- Okay ... because I feel like I've rolled it out. So, so we did the first time, uh, JC and I did it co-facilitated. Um, we had 30 people there in person all day. It was a beautiful... Um, there was not enough time in the day. And then in the next time I did it was online with a group of people from all over [00:11:00] Canada, which made it even more interesting. And then the third time, it was for a private organization, so each one's been really different. Um, but my hope has always been the same, and it is if, if one person, if, if one person in that group walks away with that, like, little bit of a fire lit in them, or that little light that shines in there and goes, "Oh, okay, I can do this. Yes, it's a little scary. Yes, it's a little uncomfortable, but it's okay," right? Like, I just h- I just... That's my hope is, is that it just kind of, like, I don't wanna say rocks someone, 'cause I don't want it to be a negative experience, but just kind of, like, ignites you. Just lights you up- Yeah ... on the inside and go, "Oh, okay." Mm. "This, this is, you know, um, this can happen," right? And, and so that's my o- my hope is just even if I get to- Yeah ... just one person. Speaker 2: Where it goes beyond an idea- Yeah ... it sounds like. Yeah. And kinda gets Speaker 3: Or if you can have that one person who shows up like this. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 3: And by the end of the workshop- Yeah they're like... Speaker 2: Right Speaker 3: Right? Like that, like they unfold their arms- Yeah ... and they're like, "Oh." Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Right? Because this is that protect. When [00:12:00] we cross our arms and we're, we're like... We're protecting ourselves. We're, we don't know what- Mm-hmm ... to walk into, and I can remember- Mm ... that very clearly from my own journey, you know? I would say- Right ... officially, my reconciliation journey started about 15 years ago. Right. Did I know it at the time? Probably not. Yeah. So- Yeah ... it's that hope for that little bit of uncomfortability, um, and change. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 4: Yeah. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree with all of that, and also, I think- Um, just, I think you hit on it, like making it hit your heart space Speaker: Yeah. Yeah Speaker 4: A- and knowing that this journey and the change can start with us, right? Um, a- and to continue those conversations, all of those things, because like you said, reconciliation, reconciliation journeys have been happening for a long time now. Mm. But sometimes I fear that we're not continuing the conversation. Right. What's the next step? Yeah. Where are we going to, right? Yeah. And so it's to keep that conversation going- Right ... to keep the journey going- Yeah ... to connect with people's hearts so that they get fired up about it- Right ... and we can collectively then move forward. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. Even in [00:13:00] the discomfort. Speaker 4: Yeah. Speaker 3: Right? 'Cause you think, like, we can see people get really ignited, and then my, like, my fear, I would agree, is is that they leave and go, "Oh, okay. But I can't, I can't change my whole workplace, so what am I gonna do?" Right? Go back to what you said at the very beginning. Start with yourself. Yeah. Start with yourself. What can you do? One step forward, one step forward, right? So... Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: And it occurs to me, this might put you on the spot a little bit. However, I'm sure you n- need... You probably talk about this in the workshop. Um, but it occurs to me, I should probably ask you, how, how would you define reconciliation? Speaker 4: Mm. Speaker 2: 'Cause I imagine people- Ooh ... come with all kinds of different ideas of what that means. Yeah. And maybe there isn't a simple definition, but if you were you give it a go. Speaker 4: Yeah. For me, it's all about relationships. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 4: And it, and it, again, starting with ourselves. We need to know where we stand, where we are, who we are, where we come from- Yeah how we relate t- to the land we're on, how we relate to the people around us, um, and all of those relationships are important. And how do we then build relationships that can [00:14:00] sustain our future together? Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. I would add, uh, what did you say? Relationships? I would... Relationships, for me, it's, it's the, it's the connection. Um, I know you and I have had this conversation before, and it's a lot about reciprocity, like back and forth. Mm. Um, because sometimes I think in this work, we want to go out and seek the knowledge. We wanna- Right ... seek the answers. We wanna, you know, I don't, I don't wanna say it, but I'm gonna say it, check the box. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Right? And it gives us some sort of sense of accomplishment, but that reciprocity comes back and is, is how, how am I giving, how am I taking, like back and forth, back and forth- Mm-hmm ... and, and kind of that interconnectedness. Yeah. So yeah, it's relationship and, and connection for me. And, and one of the very first things we, we... Uh, Mel and I both did our masters in the same program, different times with different programs, and I can't say for you, but for mine, one of that very first things was, uh, what they call it locating yourself, right? Right. Like, you have to locate yourself in the research, in the, in the work- Right ... and if you don't know [00:15:00] who you are, it's really hard to locate yourself. And so when I think about reconciliation, it's about who am I? Where do I come from? Yeah. And then how do I bring that into the relationship- Right ... authentically? Yeah. Speaker 2: And I, I think actually that's a really good point for us to maybe, um, just say a little bit more on in, in the sense that I'm realizing we haven't really named who this workshop is for. Is this 'cause, w- we know reconciliation, um, like if I come at it, pretend I know nothing, when y- you know I only know a little bit more than nothing. But if I just- ... I might ... It's like, well, wait a minute, isn't that, that's about non-Indigenous people and Indigenous people trying to get along. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4: Right? Speaker 2: But who is this workshop for? Which group? Speaker 4: It's for anybody. Speaker 3: Yeah. Everybody. Speaker 4: Yeah. I think it takes everybody, right- Yeah ... to, to get to that destination that we're all looking to get to. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it takes all of us to take steps forward to- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: build relationships, have conversations, even when it's uncomfortable. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree. And just [00:16:00] what I've learned so far, I mean, not just in this workshop, but in every single person I walk with, even in the trainings I do on a regular basis with CTRI or Achieve- Mm-hmm ... and, and the clients I see, and the folks I see in my office, is I cannot assume. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: I have no idea where people are coming from, how they grew up, the narrative that they were given. Right. Um, you know, the parts of their story that were impacted by trauma and- Mm-hmm ... you'll talk a little bit about that. But yeah, it's, so it's just don't assume because if we assume all Indigenous people know how to do this- Mm ... and, and non-Indigenous people don't know how to do this- Right ... that's a very dangerous place, and it- Yeah it doesn't connect us at all. Mm-hmm. So everyone's coming, um, with, like you said, with their heart space, right? And- Yeah ... and we're all coming for our own reasons. And, and even if I know a little bit more than nothing- Right. Yeah ... I think that's good. Yeah. That's my goal, just a little bit more every time. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. No, and I'm, I'm imagining that that, um, I mean, I think this is true of any group dynamic. You know, when random people enter a room, there's always ... I think we naturally, whether we're conscious of it or unconscious, we're, like, categorizing everybody- Mm-hmm ... and [00:17:00] ourselves and- Yeah figuring out who, who, who do I belong with and who don't I. And so- Yeah ... that's probably quite present in this, in this particular workshop. And then- Yeah ... I'm only imagining that, yeah, like, that's part of the- Speaker 3: Yeah ... Speaker 2: dare I say magic probably that happens through the day- Yeah ... is some of that, those categories hopefully break down. relevant. Speaker 4: Yeah. Conversations of like, how much room can I s- take up? Right. How much space, right? Yeah. Yeah. Am I allowed to share here- Yeah ... or can't I? And- Yep ... um, and all of those things also speak to that unlearning. There's a lot of unlearning. Oh, yeah. We're learning, but we're also unlearning all those systems and- Yeah, yeah um, the colonial structures- ... all of those things, right? Speaker 3: Yeah. Just that. Learning to Speaker 2: listen. Just that. Yeah. Speaker 4: The colonial structures. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: One of the, the, the very first things that we do, and I love that JC kind of showed us, but I mean, she's been doing it forever, um, but really helped me kind of stand stronger, and it was just that creating that space. But it's not for me and Mel or anyone who's facilitating this to create the space. It's, it's acknowledging that we [00:18:00] wanna create a safe space before we even open up this manual. So how do we do that? Right. What does each person in this room need to feel safe? Because this is going to be uncomfortable. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Right? The last training I did it, someone went, grabbed a box of Kleenex and they're like, "I'm just gonna keep this close." "I have a feeling I'm gonna cry today." I'm like, "You might." You know, it's not my goal- Yeah ... but you might. You know? Yeah. I might cry, too. Speaker 4: Yeah. Speaker 3: Right? And, uh, but, so we open in that way- Right. You know, taking that time, and that's one of the biggest ... Well, I'm, I always say the biggest. There's a lot of lessons I've learned in life. But just slowing down and creating the heart space, creating the safe space, but it's not for me to say, "Okay, today these four things are gonna make a safe space." It's about- Right what do you need? What ... 'Cause we all have that question. We all have that thought. And- Right ... we want people to be able to ask that without being- Speaker 4: Yeah ... Speaker 3: you know, jumped on and, and, and ... 'Cause that's how we learn, right? But we, we live in this time right now where it feels hard to have a difference of opinion. Speaker 4: Right. Speaker 3: And so we wanna, we wanna bring those differences together so we can open our minds. Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think what you're speaking to is [00:19:00] that co-creation of safety. Speaker 3: Yep. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Which takes relationship. Speaker 3: And time. Speaker 4: And time. Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things in the workshop that people might notice is is that, like, so, you know, historically when you've gone to training, it's like, "Welcome. Today we're gonna talk about- Speaker 2: Yep ... Speaker 3: one, two-" Da, da, da, da, da. "... three, four." "Turn to page four." Yeah. And off we go. Right. There's a lot of- Speaker 2: Right ... Speaker 3: sitting- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 3: connecting- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 3: listening. Yeah. And I think I said it in the last training. Right. I'm like, "If anyone in this room feels like, 'Why does she keep talking?'" "Why aren't we getting going?" That's reconciliation. It's about learning to listen- Yeah, yeah ... and not rush through it. Because our brains wanna go page six, page seven, page eight. Right. And get to the end. We wanna get through the manual, and- Yeah. Yeah. That is- Give me the answer. Give me the answer. Give me the thing. Yeah. Did I pass? Yeah. And that's not this. Yeah. This is, this is all heart stuff, and it's, and it's- Right ... connecting your, like your mind- Right ... and your heart. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And those are ... That's a tangible way to think about what you said earlier, Mel. Like, that it's, it's about relationship. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Building that relationship in the room. Well, and, and [00:20:00] part of, as you talk about creating, um, a sense of safety and heart space and, and letting people connect with themselves, I mean, that's also just to really name that, I mean, earlier when I invited you to define, I kind of flippantly said, "It's about indigenous and non-indigenous people getting along." Obviously that's like the bear, like that's, uh A very surface-y idea. 'Cause what we're talking about here, and I know, I mean, I, again, I, the conversation's going lots of different directions, but you both alluded to how this can be challenging or there can be some difficult, uh, some, m- um, it can be uncomfortable because we're talking about acknowledging history, acknowledging trauma- Yeah you know, talking about residential schools, talking about the impact of- Yeah ... of what has happened, right? Mm-hmm. And so, so there are some very maybe difficult things for people to say or difficult things for people Speaker 4: to hear. Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: So, yeah. Speaker 4: I think, too, like one of the concepts that sometimes people don't realize is colonization has impacted all of us. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. All of us differently- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: but [00:21:00] definitely has impacted all of us. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yep. Speaker 4: The fact that, you know, Western Eurocentric ideas and ways of learning are prioritized here means that we are all impacted by colonization. Yeah. We all have learnt in those systems in some- Right ... in some way. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 4: Um, and they're still prioritized in some way. And so unlearning some of those things- Mm ... and realizing, wow, how does that now impact how we live- Speaker 2: Right ... Speaker 4: and interact. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it can be quite impactful when you start to- Yeah ... to see all of those pieces come together. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I love how you just said that because right in how you talked about that, it's already shifting it from this isn't a, a us against them or, you know, one group against another exploration. I mean, it's acknowledging that that maybe has sometimes been what's happened. Mm-hmm. Um, but I love how you talked about that, that it's, it's allowing us to see together how we're all Speaker 3: impacted. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I heard it in another podcast or a book I read when, when we [00:22:00] talk about that, like unlearning and, and, and this actually came from a more Indigenous perspective, was even changing that language from unlearning, 'cause we can't unlearn it. Mm. We want to- Right. ... but we can't. Yeah. But recentering. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: Right? And so again, like you, you just mentioned, right, that, that Eurocentric kind of colonial way has been centered. And so when we recenter- Mm ... and we adjust and, and again- Right ... maybe put people in that circle, we see things really differently. Yeah. And so. That's good. Yeah. Speaker 2: You mentioned a manual, Heather- ... we've been talking along the way. Speaker 3: There is Speaker 2: a manual. Um, there is a manual. Um, and so, you know, just to give folks a, um, a bit of a flavor of possibly some of the content or some of the, some of the things that might get talked about, um, I thought we could dive into that a little bit. I actually wanted to start with this, if this is okay, and it's specifically when I, I took a look at the manual again, I was kind of reading it through, and I w- so I just wanted to mention this, um, and see if one of you would just speak to it a little bit. Uh, I was struck by how it started. The very first thing in the manual is a story. It's a Cree s- talking about a Cree story about the belly button, [00:23:00] and I wondered if one of you wanted to talk about, about that and just the choice of having it start that Speaker 4: way. Mm. Well, I think because we're talking about having to center ourselves, knowing who we are, where we come from, our roots, that's where that- Speaker 2: Mm Speaker 4: uh, idea to in- incorporate that story came from. And that's something that JC shared with us and, um- Speaker 2: And JC, JC's another one of the facilitators. We've mentioned JC a few times. Speaker 4: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful story to, to really highlight our connections, our interconnections- Yeah ... where we come from, our roots, all of those things. Yeah. So it's a really nice place to start to really, um, ground ourselves- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: in that work- Right ... of, of, you know, locating ourselves and then moving from there. Speaker 3: What pops up in the, in the workshop, what has popped up, and I knew it would- Yeah ... um, is, well, and first of all, like, I mean, you can probably speak a little bit more to this, but putting some of that stuff in writing- Ah, yes is really hard. Mm-hmm. So I just wanna say, [00:24:00] like, and honor JC- Mm-hmm ... and Mel and everyone kind of behind the scenes, 'cause it's, it's not easy to put something, 'cause it's not speaking on behalf of all- Speaker 2: Right ... Speaker 3: you know, Cree folks- Yeah. Right ... or that it, this was one way that JC- Right ... had learned through her, through her teachers. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: And so to share that is- Mm-hmm ... incredibly, uh, vulnerable, but also- Right ... to put it in writing is, like, a whole other level, right? But when we talk about decolonizing- Yeah ... and reconciliation, these are the things- Yeah ... that make me nervous. I'm like, are we putting that in writing? Mm-hmm. Like, is this okay? Yeah. Can I say it out loud? Right. I'm, I'm not indigenous, right? Right? But, uh, what happens in the workshop for some folks- Mm-hmm ... whether they're indigenous or not, I don't, I don't ask people to identify- Right ... when they show up in the workshops, but some people have said, "But I don't have a Cree belly button story." Speaker 2: Right. Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "But you have a story." Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: You have a belly button. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: And then some of the complications that come up is, "Well, I was adopted." Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. " Speaker 3: I don't know who my mom is. I don't..." Right. All right? And so re- Yeah ... and oh, like, we could spend a day- Exactly ... doing the belly button story. Sure. Yeah. Right? But it- Yeah ... all, that's why we did it at the beginning, I think, is s- is, is 'cause that's [00:25:00] where we wanna start. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Right? And so one of the things I often say in my office is the good, the bad, the ugly, and the beautiful. Right. We are who we are. We come from... You don't have to get rid of who you are. Right. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: But what's in that story? Right. Right? Find the beauty. Yeah. Find the uncomfortable. And so when p- people ask those questions, 'cause they all of a sudden think they don't have a culture, or they don't have this beautiful, you know, teaching or story- Right ... and so it's like, then go find it. Right. And if you can't find it, you don't have your folks, you, for whatever reasons, you were separate, like, I, like- Yeah ... I mean, that's a whole workshop. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: You're the author of your story. Speaker 4: Right. Speaker 3: Who's connected to you? Who's closest to you? Who would you like to be? Yeah. Right? And we talk about blood versus non-blood, and it's gone a- few different directions. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you wanna add anything to that, but... Speaker 4: It's just making me think of, like, I, I think we're so used to separating ourselves, and you know, like you said, putting ourselves in different categories, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but this, to me, just speaks to, like, I, I envision people sitting around the fire sharing stories. Speaker 3: Right. Speaker 4: Right? Yeah, yeah. And your story might not be my story, but that's [00:26:00] okay. We can all sort of- Yeah ... relate in some way- Right. Yeah ... to where, you know, our roots are and- Yeah ... where they come from. Yeah. And it all looks different- Yeah ... but that's okay. Speaker 3: Yeah. And for some people they're like, "Oh my gosh, we're cousins." Like, and they, and they, at the end- They find each other ... I've seen that too. Yeah. Right? Or you're, or like, "I, I think I know your mom's- Yeah ... best friend," or like- ... we find the connection. Yeah. Absolutely. So it's, it's pretty cool. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. But it's a loaded, it's a loaded page one to open with. Speaker 2: Exactly, and that's what I was gonna say. I, I can, I think it's a great illustration of, yeah, this is page one of, I think, a 45-page manual. Yeah. So as, like, I'm sure you could spend a- And yeah, the whole day. If not, probably certainly the first- Yeah ... chunk of the morning on that- Yeah ... which is great. But yeah. Yeah, it gives a good flavor of Speaker 4: that workshop. I think that is something that comes up though every time, is- Yeah ... there's not enough time. Yes. Speaker 2: No, no, no. Speaker 4: There's not enough time, and yes- Yeah ... we know there's never enough time. Yeah. But we hope that- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: you know, people can- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: go through the rest of the manual- Yeah ... and continue on. Yeah. Like, because the work is never done, you can't just take the workshop- Speaker 2: Right Speaker 4: check the box- Yeah ... "I'm done my reconciliation- Yeah ... journey." Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 4: Right? It's, it's ongoing, so. [00:27:00] Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah, no, this one in particular, it, it really strikes me, like makes sense that it is such a, it's, it's such an experiential workshop, right? So the whole, the, the idea of working on reconciliation, this literally is, is just a step. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm, Speaker 2: yeah. And however far you get in the manual is kind of, uh, irrelevant in some way. Right. It's, it's the actual process of- Speaker 4: Mm ... Speaker 2: and what that means. Yeah, so. However, it, it, we do wanna talk a little bit- Mm ... maybe touch in on some of the other areas that you often talk about, 'cause there is such a rich, full list of- Speaker 4: Yeah Speaker 2: concepts and, I mean, there is a lot in that manual, so- Yeah ... um, so I, I just wanted to invite each of you maybe just to choose one piece or one topic to, to, that stood out for you or that you'd like to highlight. Speaker 4: Sure. I, I think for me it was really important to have, you know, a timeline of the history of colonization in there for folks to be aware. Speaker 2: Yeah. ' Speaker 4: Cause you need that awareness- Yeah ... to start, right? Yeah. And, and more than only looking at the residential school [00:28:00] system, which is a, a large part of it, but there's so many other- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: systems and processes, laws that have come into play that, um, create this multilayered oppression that has happened. Yeah. And so I think it's important for people to know that. Um, and another conversation we've been having at CTRI is, um, expanding our idea of intergenerational trauma. So we know that that term intergenerational trauma, it's, it's all over the place. Um, but we're n- now trying to shift from that concept to colonial trauma. Mm. Yeah. And what that does is shines the light on where the trauma actually originates. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 4: Um, because when we say intergenerational trauma, it's our ancestors, our family that's passing down that trauma, and it often places blame on, um, indigenous women specifically. Mm. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 4: Uh, indigenous- Interesting mothers. And so if we shine the light on, you know, the colonial structures, the colonial history, we can then maybe also put some energy [00:29:00] towards that work. Speaker 2: So this is one of the areas in the workshop where you're, you're providing that information. Mm-hmm. There's some teaching, and then I'm, I'm imagining people get a chance to see where they fit- Right in that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Another potentially difficult area to Speaker 3: explore. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see the power in that, for sure. Speaker 3: A lot of... Like, it, it surprises me, but doesn't surprise me, um, you know, rolling it out, and even when I have different workshops, um, a lot of people will start at residential schools. Speaker 2: Hmm. Speaker 3: Some people still don't even really know. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: Right? Um, and there's, there's, there's a... We could probably do a whole podcast on that, but... So I like the timeline in the book is, again, what we could do with pages Speaker 2: Right, yeah. Speaker 3: Uh, but it's a beautiful starting point in terms- Yeah ... of, like, it helps, like, oh my gosh, there's so much. Yeah. And I like that it's bringing it back to that colonial system. Yeah. It's not, you know, the indigenous person's- Right ... fault for bringing- Yeah ... that through. Right, yeah. You know, or, or carrying that trauma, and- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 3: um, so that's been [00:30:00] interesting. Um, and again, every time I roll out the workshop, I'm learning more and more- Hmm and more. Mm-hmm. And I think that's really important to highlight, too, is- Mm-hmm ... Mel and I are not experts in this. Right. Like, we don't have this memorized. We're not able to spit out stats and facts- ... you know, like, 10 miles deep. We're still learning- Right. Um- Yeah ... and doing that. But there's, like... I'm, I'm excited, but it also shocks me, but doesn't shock me that we're still, a lot, some folks still don't- Right don't know. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Speaker 3: Don't know. Yeah. Right? Or are scared to know. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: Don't wanna know. Right. Privileged enough- Yeah ... to not know. Right. You know, they can have their blinders up. Right. There's... Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think the other thing, made me think about when you talked about, like, kind of looking at things over time, and I think there's often still an idea of, "Oh, that was so long ago." Speaker 3: Hmm. Speaker 2: Whatever that wa- maybe thinking, people think about residential schools and only that. Yeah. Right? And, and so I think as you're describing it, it's, it's helping kind of open up that understanding that this is an ongoing- Speaker 3: Still happening. Speaker 2: Still happening. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Current situation. Yeah. Speaker 3: [00:31:00] 600 years- Yeah ... it's been going on for. Mm. Right? And it's like, "Well, just..." No, it's not over. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I can- Well, good for Speaker 2: you. Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I have a few things I'd like to talk, but I w- maybe wanna add, like, you wanted to talk a little bit about the trauma iceberg. Speaker 4: Right. Speaker 3: And then I can add kind of the activity that I really enjoy- Yeah that kind of connects that, too. Sure. So it might be helpful for you to go first. Speaker 4: Well, and, and yeah, just, uh, briefly, the, there's a depiction of trauma as an iceberg. Um, just to sort of explain that concept of colonial trauma a little bit more, so what we see on the top of the iceberg is, you know, those individual impacts, the collective impacts, community impacts, but underneath the surface are all of those systems. Uh, the oppressions, patriarchy, you know, all of those things that have contributed to those impacts that we see. Speaker 2: Yeah. Powerful image. Speaker 3: It is a pretty powerful image, um, when you show it and you give people, like, a moment to sit and think. Um, and then again, always connecting back to themselves. Right. Where do you see yourself in this? Because a lot [00:32:00] of us have had that privilege, and I do some air quotes on this, because we don't realize you have it- Right ... until you realize you have it. Mm-hmm. That you don't know what's going on underneath there. You might not have been impacted the same way other folks have. So it's quite, it's quite powerful, and then when it connects to the, to the timeline, um, of, of some, some history that we could get into the book, um, there's lots of... You see- I guess little fires being lit or light bulbs going off. Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: People... Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And then we take a break. We do lots of breaks. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: We do lots of breaks, so yeah, that's, um... I- I intentionally pause a lot to give people- Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah ... Speaker 3: that beautiful discomfort. Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, okay, Speaker 3: sit in it for a minute. Yeah. Recognize where do you fit in this? Where do you sit? Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Was there any other part of the workshop that, that you had wanted to highlight? Speaker 3: Well, the activity that I really liked, and, uh, I didn't create it. I'm pretty sure Mel and all the magicians- Other folks did, yeah ... behind the scenes got to, to do this. And, uh, so I got to roll it out, and it's, [00:33:00] uh... We've done it a few different times, and it shows up different every time. But the activity is r- right at the beginning, and it's called Changing the Narrative. Ooh. And so after we review, you know, this brief timeline, we talk a little bit about the, the trauma iceberg. We, we, we do an activity, small groups and changing the narrative, and there's, I think, six, six or eight different policies or acts or- Mm ... moments in time. Yeah. And they give a snippet of that. You know, so the Indian Act or, um, the peasant farmery or the past system. Mm-hmm. Uh, things like this. And so I give them time. They can Google and go search on their own to deep- to do a deeper dive. But then they walk through that, and they connect to it. Where... Like, where do you position yourself when this, when this act or this policy was put into place? Speaker 2: How did... How would your life touch this, or how would your an- your Speaker 3: ancestors might have- How your ancestors might have been connected. Okay. Yeah. Where, you know, for s- for some folks- Yeah ... they're first-generation settlers here- Right ... or, you know, occupiers. Some people have been here for, you know- Yeah ... longer than that. And, and so we do that, and then we connect it to that moment, and then they get to [00:34:00] change the narrative. Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Speaker 3: What would it, what would it look like if we had worked together, right? If it hadn't been like that, like the, that oppressive kind of patriarchal, um, system that was doing it, what would it look like? And then they get that chance to rewrite it, um, and then talk about what, like, if we did, right? Like, if we didn't have a past system, we didn't have this, what would that look like? And so it just, right at the beginning, opens conversation. It brings in ideas. Yeah. Um, it helps with, I d- people I didn't know. Yeah. I didn't know. What is that? Mm-hmm. Right? Right. Right. Um, like those kinds of things. Yeah. And so that, that's been really helpful, powerful, and it gives a really good conversation, and it's a starting point. But again, it also helps people kind of connect and locate themselves- Right ... in this and see things differently. 'Cause I think it goes back to that, you know, like, "Well, it happened so long ago. It happens so lo-」 No, it's still impacting. So when we think about the, like the, the farming and, and the restriction on the land and all that, that is impacting our food today and how people are... And then our health and, like, [00:35:00] and so- Right ... I mean, we don't have enough time to go into all the connections, but- Speaker 4: Right ... Speaker 3: when we live in a society that doesn't push us to see those things, and you live in a place where you don't have to, you have that- Speaker 4: Right. Yeah ... Speaker 3: I'll just name it, white privilege, to be able to not, right? Or the privilege to, to be able to not. You don't necessarily connect it. And so this space, in those little moments- Yeah ... we get some time to be like- Right? So it's not my fault, it's not your fault But connect. Right. Like, connect it way back. Yeah. 'Cause it- See, see the- ... it wasn't just 10 years ago- Yeah ... 15 years ago. Yeah. It's still going on, and then- The impacts- ... the long- Continue ... the impacts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Speaker 2: mm-hmm. Speaker 3: Yeah. And it was hard for me to even connect some of that. Like, how does, like, where does this make sense? You're like, "Oh, my gosh," right? Mm-hmm. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. And then when you see the actual intentional oppressive policies that were put in place to- Right to stop the growth, the- Yeah ... the, the resilience, the- Yeah ... not resilience, but the, the adaptation. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Speaker 3: It's... It gets in there. Yeah, Speaker 2: absolutely. Yeah. You know, I, I, I can [00:36:00] remember, um, this is reminding me... I mean, I've been working with CTRI for quite a while, and there were, um, very, a few occasions where I think in, in some of the early development of this workshop that Mel was talking about before, um, where as a whole group we, we I think explored some of those kinds of... Had... Did a version maybe of that activity and explored some of those. Yeah. And, and I just remember for myself, it, it really opened up in my mind, 'cause it, it got me thinking about the timing and my grandparents and- Yeah ... and you know, and you start to think about that from a personal perspective, and that was... I just remember feeling pretty churned up and- Yeah ... and it was kind of wild to think about, like, just how my own family, you know, o- our lives, how that intermingled with things that were happening in northern Saskatchewan, which is where I was from- Speaker 3: Yeah ... where I grew up. Speaker 2: Um, you know, and then I, and then I brought it up at the next family dinner, which was interesting. But [00:37:00] it was- She said the word ... good in the end- Yeah. Yeah ... actually. Um, but it was, uh... Yeah, so just, I... That sense of how it, it, it goes from a concept to... I know for me it was... I mean, I didn't... I would've said, "Oh, yes, I, I know that it connects with me," but that was a pretty intellectual idea, I think, for me- Yeah until I actually saw and could feel a bit the actual connection. So. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4: And what you talked about there, like, at a family dinner, I think that happens a lot during the workshops- Right ... too, is people will go, like, "Oh, yeah, this comes up- Speaker 3: Right ... Speaker 4: in my gatherings- Yeah ... or we talk about this." Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so that's, that's what we mean when it's- Yeah ... it's n- knowing that you have a part to play in reconciliation and that it ripples out. Yeah. So when you know more- Yeah ... you can then ripple that out to- Yeah ... you know, your family at a- Yeah ... family gathering- Yeah ... or your workplace. Right. Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There was a really great example in that one training, uh, that you were there, and there was some debate on, on, on changing a name. Yes. And, and, uh, and, uh, I can't remember exactly which name it was. Speaker 4: It was... [00:38:00] Wasn't it the road, um- Speaker 2: Oh, like a street Speaker 4: name? Avenue Jam- Speaker 3: Yeah, the Speaker 4: street ... Avenue Jemicanol. Speaker 3: Yeah. And one of the participants brought up that, you know, there was a challenge at the family dinner, like- Speaker 2: Right ... " Speaker 3: Why do we have to change all the names?" So this kind of stuff. And, and an eight-year-old said, "I can help you learn to pronounce it. It's okay." You know? And it was like, yes. Yeah. Right? Like- Yeah ... and that's the thing- Right is we're not trying to start arguments or fights or- Right ... split families apart, but it's about Yeah, we're, we're, we're recentering, we're re- Mm ... changing, we're, we're, we're including Right ... we're, we're opening and understanding, like, names, like the name of that- Right ... Bishop Grandin, what it was changed to, and, like, the understanding that is important- The history behind it the history behind it- Yeah, yeah ... and, and, and what Bishop Grandin had done intentionally. And, like, and so yes, it's uncomfortable and it's hard, and, and I'm not asking you to give up your faith, and I'm not asking you to never go to church again or... It's about just understanding and opening your mind and, and- Right hearing and listening and sitting in that. And- Speaker 4: Yeah ... Speaker 3: and, and a lot of think- I think a lot of people are having the conversations, but I, like, I think it connects back to what you said at the beginning, is that's the hope is- Yeah ... is that [00:39:00] it doesn't just stop at the end of this workshop, that people go home and go, "Did you know?" Yeah. Like, "Did you know?" Yeah. That's what lights me up. Speaker 2: Well, and I, so I wanted to ask each of you, and you've, you maybe just gave us an example, Heather, but, um, what's something that is maybe surprising each of you or maybe delighting you that you weren't necessarily expecting from, from entering in these conversations with folks? Speaker 4: Hmm. I'm gonna let you go on that one first. Speaker 3: Oh my God, there's so many things. I have a few notes, but that's not on my notes at all. Um- I guess I'll be a little vulnerable and I'll share, 'cause Mel knows this side of me a little bit more. But, uh, it surprises and delights me on, on how I've been put on this path of reconciliation or how I was, you know, introduced to it and kind of my purpose in it, um, and my, and my, and my journey of it. It's really uncomfortable. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: It's really hard. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: [00:40:00] I have wanted to quit a thousand different times. Um- But that's what, that's what brings me that joy is, is some of the hardships that I've gone through, some of the discomfort, some of those, those learning lessons, when I'm in the training and I confidently say the things I need to say, which the elders I've had the honors of walking with, the participants I've met, the children, the youth, the families that I have learned from along the way, um, they've said, "Go, Heather, take it forward. Move, move that knowledge forward." And when I say it, I slightly wanna die on the inside- ... 'cause I'm always... That's my biggest fear is I'm gonna say something wrong. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: I'm gonna hurt someone's feelings. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna mess up. It's gonna be outdated or offensive. Mm. And I just think about, the elders go, "Yeah, yeah, you might make a mistake." "And we'll correct you- ... if you would." But when someone in that class or that, or online, or just hangs back for a few minutes, or says it in front of the group and they're like, "Thank you for saying that-" Mm ... "'cause I was thinking that." Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. " Speaker 3: I was [00:41:00] feeling that." So that's the- Yeah ... stuff that brings me joy is if I can so uncomfortably say it out loud- Right or bring it to the surface- Right ... with as much authenticity as possible, and one person in there is like, "Oh, thank God." Mm-hmm. "I thought I was the only one who thought that or felt that," right? And then it, that's what brings me the joy is, is, is bringing people safely into that unknown, 'cause that's really what it is. It's the unknown, so I don't know if that answers the question. That's great. No. But I'm always scared. And Mel knows every time we do, I'm like, "I'm scared. I'm, I'm scared." She goes, "Just keep going." I'm like, "Okay, I'm scared." Speaker 4: Well, and I think that's- Yeah ... the thing that has come up, too, is you're not the only one that's scared. I know. Right? Um, I, I think fear sometimes gets us stuck. Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 4: Right? If we're- You've said that to me Speaker 3: 1,000 Speaker 4: times ... yeah. Fear gets us stuck. And so if we can stay in that fear or, and, and then no change happens- Yeah ... because we're not doing anything. Yeah. We're just stuck there. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 4: Or we can, you know, use some courage and take a step and see what happens. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of times as long as we're making that step, like you said, uh- Speaker 3: [00:42:00] Consciously ... Speaker 4: consciously, and, um, being yourself while you're doing it- Yeah ... um, uh, with the right intentions, I think we're gonna be okay, right? Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 4: Another thing that comes to mind about, like, the surprise, what surprises us- Yeah and, and you touched on it, Heather, but people not really knowing the full history. Speaker 2: Mm. Yep, yeah. Speaker 4: You know? Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 4: It's getting better. Speaker 2: You're right. Speaker 4: I think our schools are doing a better job now- Right ... of- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: um, informing folks- Yeah. Yeah ... but there's still so much that's not known. Yeah. And so if we can be part of educating people- Yeah on- Yeah ... what that was and- Yeah ... the impacts today, I think we're doing something good. Speaker 2: Absolutely. So I know this, this is a very new workshop, but I, I also, I already wanna ask you, 'cause I'm sure you've thought about it, where do- what's your vision of where this might go? Do you have a... Do you have a sense of, um, where you hope this will go in the future? Speaker 4: Well, I, I just hope that we can talk and connect with [00:43:00] as many folks as possible. Like- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 4: keep this conversation going. Yeah. Talk to as many people as we can about reconciliation- Yeah ... what it means to them- Yeah ... what it means to us as a collective. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 4: Moving the needle forward a little bit. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: I would add that, yeah, I think definitely just keep it going. Um, I do, you know, I'm just gonna throw my little, my little, uh, jab in here right now, but I hope that it could be a couple more days or two days. Um- To have the time ... have the time. Yeah. Yeah, it is so sensitive. It's so vulnerable- Mm-hmm ... and people's... I mean, people, in my experience, are signing up because they want to, right? Right. Yeah. I mean, sometimes there's an element that, like, it's work- Right ... but the reality is, is people have shown up because they want to- Right and, and there's just never enough time. So, um, one of the things we noticed in the first one is, is that JC and I, Mel and I, a few of the trainers, um, across, uh, CTR and Achieve have had the honors of doing, um, what we call two-eyed seeing approach, um, and a co-facilitation model- Yeah ... in some of our workshops, and we get [00:44:00] five days with folks- Yeah um, when we kind of walk through grief and trauma and, and those kinds of things. And so to, to bring this in one day is really hard- ... but I mean, I'll take one day over no days. Yeah. Um, and, and it's hard because it's people's time, and- Yeah ... and- Speaker 2: Yeah ... Speaker 3: it's a lot. And it, like, maybe like one day on a, like, you know, Tuesday and then a Thursday give people a day to- Right like, process 'cause it's, it's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot. But, uh- Yeah ... yeah, I just hope people keep asking questions, and, and no question is silly. Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. Speaker 3: Yeah. And, and just keep doing it. And when, like, I think when you feel the most scared, just know that you're probably on the right path. Right. Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're right. I... Th- this workshop is on a continuous journey itself. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 4: And so it, it could, you know, change and evolve over time. Oh, Speaker 3: there's already notes I put in because- I'm sure ... again, the folks that we're working with and walking with- Mm ... and sitting with, they're like, you know, even in the re... So the timeline, one of the very first days we r- rolled it out, we talked about that timeline. Um, and [00:45:00] then someone in the, um, audience said, you know, "Would you be able to add in the, the timelines where apologies began to happen?" Mm. I was like, "Oh, that's a great- Speaker 2: Right ... Speaker 3: point." Yeah. So we can't keep changing the manual, but I have it in my notes so that... 'Cause that was important for them, is, you know- Yeah ... when did these apologies kind of start, and then- Right ... how, what did that look like in action? And- Right ... and so again, being able to have those- Speaker 2: Right ... Speaker 3: you know. So lots of notes in there, and- Yeah, I think- ... and watching it change and shift and- It'll Speaker 2: be evolving. Yeah. And, and maybe just to mention on a practical level, I know that, um, I was taking a look on the website, and, and sure enough, I knew there would be- ... there's some free resources. And it, and y- you know, um, like, resources that, that participants or other folks can find that- Yeah ... support- Yeah ... just like with the manual, kind of support ongoing learning or- Yeah ongoing conversations. Yeah. And so we can include links to, to those kinds of things too- Mm-hmm ... in the show notes for folks. They can check it out. Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. And, like, even one of the things that, uh, that we've started doing in the workshop is right at the beginning now, I put up a white, um, like, a white, [00:46:00] uh, flip chart. You know, Mel knows I love my flip charts. But we do a flip chart, or we start a chat in the, in the online. Um- Yeah ... because people already have amazing resources that have helped them. Right. Yeah. Books that have helped them. Yeah. Just Speaker 2: sharing Speaker 3: all that. People... Th- Google is our friend in this- Mm-hmm situation, googling things that we can do- Right ... um, to, to, to do that. And so CTRI has tons of resources there, but we've created now a list in the training where people are like, "Well, I found this book was really good," and so I'm like, "Throw it up on the paper." Thr- And so that's- Yeah. So the last training I did, that whole paper was filled- That's great with- That's a Speaker 2: great resource ... Speaker 3: things that folks could use- Yeah ... or access or download or read or- Yeah ... attend- Yeah ... for free. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Right? So yeah. Speaker 2: That's great. All right. Well, let's talk about where folks can find this workshop. You've, you've mentioned in person as well as online. So- Mm-hmm ... it happens in both- Speaker 4: Happens in Speaker 2: both Format Speaker 4: worlds. Yeah. It happens publicly and privately. If you wanna bring it to your workplace, we can do that. Yeah. Speaker 3: I think the next one is set for September 10th, uh, virtually online. Um, I was set to [00:47:00] roll that out, but another amazing facilitator, Jolene, is doing it. So we actually just talked last week about it. I gave her my, my experience, and she's, "I'm so excited." Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: Uh, so it's going online there. But yeah, it's like we can... You can get ahold of CTRI, and we can go to your... I d- did a private for a corporation. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 3: They worked with, uh, all the amazing coordinators behind the scenes, and, and we... I think there was 30 people in that one as well. Yeah, Speaker 2: really great. Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I'm so excited to see this workshop out in the world doing its thing, and, uh, really lovely to talk to you both about it today. Thank you so much. Speaker 3: Thank you. Oh, thank you. Speaker 2: So, uh, yes, thank you for sharing your passion and giving us a real rich taste. I think we did a good job of giving a little flavor of both, of some of the content, but also what to expect, right? And to, to kind of know what, what it might be like. So thank you. And to you, our listeners, thank you for joining us. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Come back for the next one in a month's time. So until then, be well and stay curious.[00:48:00] Speaker: Looking for free resources and training in the areas of trauma, counseling, and mental health? Be sure to check out our website at www.ctrinstitute.com