Eric: [00:00:00] This is the Counseling Insights podcast, a podcast to help you develop your own insights and practices as you listen to Vicki Enns connect with counselors and helping professionals about their work, their passions, and their strategies. Vicki: Welcome to another episode of the Counseling Insights Podcast. I'm Vicki Enns, and I'm your host. And joining me today is Mary Claire Decker. MC Decker is a registered psychologist who has founded Mindful Cycles after recognizing a significant gap in mental healthcare that doesn't recognize how emotional wellbeing can shift in sync with menstrual cycles. MC's own journey with chronic menstrual migraines further reinforced the need for an approach that acknowledges the profound link between hormones, the brain, and the nervous system. MC has completed the Menstrual Cycle Practitioner Program by the Center of Excellence and the Menstruality Leadership [00:01:00] Program by Red School. In my conversation today with MC, we discuss the link between hormones, menstrual cycles, and mental health, and our wellbeing. We discuss how familiar, yet often ignored or avoided, this impact is. And MC gives several tangible questions and strategies we can all use to pay more attention to ourselves, as well as use with the people that we support. Welcome, MC MC: Thank you, Vicki. Thanks so much for having me today. Vicki: Yeah. I'm really delighted to talk to you again, and we've had a brief conversation, and so I'm excited to dive in a little more with you and to learn more about this really fascinating area that you've really focused in on with your practice. Um- MC: Absolutely. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Yeah. It's amazing. Vicki: And so maybe we can start there, even just saying a little more about some of what I said in your, in the introduction, in your bio. Um, I wanted to ask you right away, can you tell us more [00:02:00] about what is the Menstrual Psycho- Cycle Practitioner Program? 'Cause I had no s- idea such a program existed, and I imagine- Yeah that's true for many of our listeners too. MC: Yeah. Yeah, it's, um, it's an online, um, sort of education program through the Centre of Excellence, um, uh, Vicki, which is a U- UK based organization. And really what I would say about that program is it's kind of a, an, uh, a foundational or introduction to kind of the menstrual cycle in general. So it's learning about, you know, what hormones are involved in a typical menstrual cycle, what are some of the health and mental health conditions we can see kinda shift and change across the cycle. So for people who have a, a particular interest possibly in this area, um, it's a, it's a really good kinda starter place and kind of a foundational place to kinda learn some basic information about the menstrual cycle. Okay. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Yeah. Vicki: And then- And I'm happy to ... and then you of course, have made, linked it with mental health and that whole part of your journey, as well as your own personal journey. And I wanted to just invite you [00:03:00] to say a little more about that, if you'd like to, as part of your backstory to this, that, um, you know, mentioning that you, you have a very personal history and link to this interest as well. So tell us a little bit more about- Okay ... how that shaped this path for you. MC: Yeah, I'd be happy to. Yeah, really, it was my own personal journey that started this for me, as it often is- Yeah ... I think for, for people, right, when we get into these kind of special areas. But, so I have suffered for, um, all of my menstruating life with severe menstrual migraine. And about 10 years ago, they started to get quite severe- Yeah ... and they were really starting to impact my quality of life. Uh, and so I went into the medical system looking for some support- Right ... and some, you know, ways of managing the migraines. And I did get some, I got some good treatment, but what I was told consistently was, "Well, we can treat you for migraine in general, but we don't actually know a lot about menstrual migraine." Hmm. "We know that they're often more difficult to treat and less responsive to medication, but no one's really doing the research, so we don't actually know how to [00:04:00] support Vicki: you- Yeah ... MC: with this." Oh, no. So quite frankly, that answer, it kinda, you know, it kinda ticked me off. Yeah. And Vicki: so I- I bet ... MC: well, I'm gonna start learning, you know, about the menstrual cycle myself. Right. And so that's sort of what led me to begin- Yeah ... researching the menstrual cycle. And one of the things that I started to do in that process, Vicki, was to track my own cycle- Mm-hmm ... and to study my cycle. Right. Initially, that was for signs and symptoms of my migraine. Right. Like, when are these occurring? What's happening the day before, the day after? And that was a super helpful process for the migraine. But what ended up happening was that I started to discover that much more about me was cyclical than I had thought. Mm. Uh, and so I started to see patterns of myself, you know, around things like my own emotions, how they would show up, how I would express them, patterns in my relationships. Mm. All kinds of things. Um- And I don't, I don't mean this to sound, you know, dramatic or over the top, but this practice really changed my life. Yeah. And so it got me thinking, "Okay, if getting to know myself through this lens was this helpful for me, [00:05:00] there has to be something here that could support the people and clients that I'm working with as well." Vicki: Oh, yeah. Yeah. MC: Yeah, so then I went back into the research and started looking at that intersection of mental health and the menstrual cycle, and have kind of build- built my, um, you know, my knowledge base from there. And yeah, sort of since then, I have really been working to, you know, support clients in this way- Right but then also to teach and train other therapists how to integrate- Yeah ... this knowledge into their practice as well. Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. You know, it's, it's interesting, as I listen to you talk about it, again, it, it almost seems, it seems so obvious, right? As, as someone also- Mm-hmm ... in a, well, formerly menstruating body. Um, you know- Yeah ... it, it's like of co- like, of course, all the... And I think so many people I know, like personally and, uh, like, um, yeah, we all, we all know, we recognize these cycles or patterns, or we, we think we do, and then as you mentioned, if we r- if we start to actually track and pay attention, it, it just makes so much sense that there are all these connections. But I can really- Yeah. Yeah ... resonate, and I think so many others probably too. You know, so often we, [00:06:00] you know, we maybe grumble about it with our friends a little bit, um, or partners or that sort of thing, but we just kinda push through and don't really... There isn't really- Yeah ... necessarily a lot of conversation about it. So, um, I can really resonate with that lack of attention to, to this area of life, and maybe, and even a feeling like we, we shouldn't talk about it too much, right? It's kinda got that ew factor- Yeah ... or something like that. Yeah. So I'm curious what, you know, as you- Yeah ... started to look at it more and learnt so much about yourself- Yeah and then maybe as you started talking about it with your clients, um, I, I mean, what were some of the other patterns, or were there other ways that- Mm-hmm ... what were you hearing from other people as you started to talk about it? MC: Yeah. Yeah. W- well, first of all, when I first started introducing this idea of paying more attention to the cycle, um, s- s- uh, specifically with clients- Yeah there was such an interest around it. Like, you, when pe- like exactly what you said, the way it lands for people is it's like, "Yeah, this makes sense." Yeah. Of course how we experience [00:07:00] ourselves and experience our emotions and experience our mental health symptoms changes across the cycle. It's like this feeling of, like, yeah, how have we not been working with this more already? And so what I have found is when I f- first began introducing this into my work and into, uh, my client practice- Clients were really interested in it. Mm. Mm-hmm. Like, they were curious about it. The idea of tracking their cycle was something that was somewhat exciting. Right. "Yeah, let's, let's check this out." And, and that's not me saying that, you know, everything about mental health is cyclical. Right. Much of it's not, but some of it is. Right. And if we're not tracking the cycle, then we're not really, you know, capturing that. And so the way... You know, my experience is that talking about this with other people, it lands really well. Right. It lands really well for folks, and people are often quite curious and interested and, and want to know more. Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. Absolutely. And so, so I... if I understand, right, I think kind of the foundation of y- of this approach is this notion of, um, how you've des- how you describe it yourself, which is working with our cycles and not against them. So say a little more about that. Mm-hmm. What [00:08:00] does that look like? What does that mean? Sure. MC: Yeah, yeah. I think I, um, I've, I think I've moved away a little bit from that language of against, because I- Yeah ... for some reason it feels like that word, in some ways, implies if we're not working with the cycle, we're somehow causing harm- Okay or, and that's not at all... I think what I would say now, Vicki, as I've done this more and more, is it's about, it's about working with the cycle and not around it. Ah. Like, not trying to bypass it, I think, is better language in a way. But basically what that means is therapeutically- It's, you know, we, we meet people, we meet our clients where they're at, right? We s- we talk about that a lot. We meet clients where they're at emotionally and where they're at kind of cognitively. Um, but we're- this is also about meeting people where they're at cyclically and understanding where is this person in their menstrual cycle today, you know, in our therapy, uh, session, and what does that mean about how they're experiencing themselves, how they're experiencing their mental health symptoms, and what does it mean about what they're bringing to the therapy session, and also what they might be needing from [00:09:00] me? So it's, I- identifying the fact that the, the brain really changes across the menstrual cycle, and how we experience ourself and our mental health symptoms does too. And so working in alignment with that just means that we're also holding a place in our therapy s- offices and therapy practice for where people are at cyclically and using that to kind of help inform how we're supporting, uh, and working with our clients. Vicki: Okay. MC: Yeah. Vicki: I'm wondering- Mm-hmm ... could you give us an example, like just to make that a little more tangible? Like if s- like how might you a- like you might be inviting someone to track, and so what would that even look like? Or like d- I guess there's probably lots of different ways. Maybe there's... I'm sure there's folks that like charts. There's people who are, uh, just journaling about it. Um, but I'm curious, like, like what would be the kinds of things when you say our brain changes across the cycle, like what might actually- Mm-hmm ... be showing up in a person's day-to-day MC: journaling Vicki: of it? Yeah. Yeah. MC: Yeah. So, so many things. Okay. Yeah. But, um, I'll, I'll, I'll pick a few- Yeah[00:10:00] that I think are like most relevant kind of I think for clinical practice. So one of the biggest things that shifts and changes across the cycle, Vicki, is, is regulation. Yeah. It's, it's our ability to, you know, uh, regulate and manage, you know, our nervous system, our a- our affect, our emotional experience. Um, what we see neurobiologically is that, um, at times in the menstrual cycle where estrogen is increased, we have increased activity in the prefrontal cortex- And so what we see as a result of this is that, um, folks and people with menstrual cycles are more easily able to access regulation- Mm ... at times in the cycle where estrogen is higher. We have increased top-down kind of regulatory effect and ability. And so if we take an example, say, of working in our clinical practice with somebody who has a history of trauma, right, and who has struggled, or could be history of anxiety, anything really where someone's struggling with some dysregulation. If I know that where somebody's at in their menstrual cycle might be supportive [00:11:00] of their goals around regulation, then I'm gonna work with that- Yeah ... and I might have a session with that person at a particular time in their cycle. Oh, interesting. Well, we, yeah, we are- Are ... we're knowing that this person has- Right sort of a wider window of tolerance at that time. Vicki: Mm-hmm. MC: And I might draw from y- I might use different interventions, I might use different techniques or tools, given that I know that this person's ability to regulate what's going on for themselves is improved at this point in the cycle. Right. Now, this has, this has been something that I have, will have worked with the client tracking- Right before doing, right? So I've invited this client into a place of curiosity around, "Hey, what would it be like if we tracked some of these, uh, symptoms or experiences that you're reporting across a few cycles to see sort of what is ebbing and flowing and what's changing," right? And very often we'll see, and this is the case in some of the research that we see around trauma too, Vicki, is that, um, trauma symptoms improve quite significantly. They don't go away, but they improve sort of early to mid-cycle, and they often get worse kind of in the second half- Mm-hmm ... in the luteal phase of the cycle. [00:12:00] So if I have tracked with my client that this is the case for them, then I am gonna offer different tools or different interventions mid-cycle when I know that person's nervous system has increased capacity for things. Right. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Does that make sense with that? Yeah, Vicki: absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Um- Okay, and so, and there you just mentioned, like I know when we spoke initially, you talked about aligning interventions neurobiologically, and so this is an example of that. Yeah. MC: This is an example of that. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Yeah, yeah. And so in this case, what I might do is if this, this client has noticed improved trauma symptom- like improvements in their trauma symptoms mid-cycle, uh, and worsening of their trauma symptoms or worsening of kind of their ability to, you know, to regulate what's going on for them, I would maybe choose more of those, you know, challenging or exposure or process-based interventions to do mid-cycle when we have that extra support of estrogen- Mm that's gonna support the role of regulation. I might do that kind of mid-cycle, early to mid-cycle. And in the second half of the [00:13:00] cycle, when that person's nervous system is a little bit more sensitized and maybe w- you know, is struggling to find regulation, I might focus more at that time in the cycle on some of those regulation skills and really slowing things down and supporting the client in terms of where they're at, um, from a regulation perspective. Right. So that's sort of another example of how I would align the types of interventions I'm doing- Right ... to work with neurobiologically what we're seeing in the cycle. Vicki: Okay, okay. So would it... Just to make sure I understand, would it fit then, like so early in or mid-cycle? Mm-hmm. Of course, every, every person is unique and depending on what they're coming to therapy for and what they're working on. However, that might be when you're doing maybe a little more actual processing of therapy, or sorry, of trauma, maybe like looking more directly at just difficult things or, or- exploring different things- Yeah ... whether, and using whatever modality counselors are using. Whatever modality. Yeah, yeah. MC: Yeah. Vicki: And then later on it might be focusing more on, we might say resourcing or just settling or- Yeah and, and so that's [00:14:00] interesting 'cause then I, I take from that, that you're working with the client's body, but then also in those moments it's, it's helping them grow those same capacities. Like they're, they're deepening their ability- Yeah ... to do that for themselves, but they're gonna gain the most benefit, um- Yes at those different times. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. MC: Yeah, it's just working... Yeah, and it's a, it's a really, you know, for those of us who do practice kind of more, you know, somatically or from an embodiment perspective that- Yeah ... we have to be able to include the menstrual cycle, you know? Yeah. In, in this. It's the bodily experience. Absolutely. And so it really invites people into that somatic, you know, aspect of themselves in a way that they maybe haven't done before. Right. Um, yes, that's, your summary there, Vicki, was exactly, um, you know, exactly what I was saying. Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it makes so much sense. Of course, as you just mentioned, the connection to a somatic focus, like, like what we're, and our emotions, like what we're feeling in our bodies. Um, I imagine, you know, 'cause this is my experience too, I imagine you also see, um, [00:15:00] people notice a lot of connection to where their, where their beliefs go and their thoughts go and, um, how well they're able to manage that self-critic perhaps. Yeah. And, um- Yeah ... that kind of stuff. Yeah. MC: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, what we s- what we often say is that the, the, uh, the second half of the cycle, kind of that luteal phase is sort of the natural home of the inner critic, you Vicki: know? Oh, the natural home of the inner critic. I like that. MC: Yeah. Um- Very Vicki: validating, actually. MC: Yeah, my teachings from Red School. But, um, yeah, the, it's a... Yes, our, our thoughts, uh, the types of emotions that we kind of have access to and are more prevalent for us also shifts and changes, but it's true that we often run into, yeah, increased sort of critical thinking- Right in the second half of the cycle, or more negative, uh, emotions are sort of showing up there. Um, and that's all to do with some of the shifts and changes kind of, uh, in the brain at that time. But, exactly, and so then if I know that about my client, I can meet them there- Right ... in the second half and say, "Okay, how do we, well, how do we wanna work [00:16:00] with your inner critic- Right at this time, knowing it's a little bit louder, right? It might be a little bit more difficult to, to quiet that part of you, but what can we do, uh, to support that?" So it's using that knowledge- Right ... uh, in the interventions, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Vicki: And see, I'm, I'm wondering, so I'm thinking about- Um, folks listening and who, you know, are counselors of some sort themselves and, and probably also really resonating and say, "Well, yeah, this makes so much sense." And, um, and in some ways it sounds fairly straightforward, right? Like, like you said, like include, just include thinking about cycles and menstrual cycles and asking people about it. But I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, um... 'Cause I, 'cause I know you also, I think you train other counselors, right? Or you offer some, uh- Yeah ... workshops or courses for folks. And so give us a little taste of like, like how do you help people learn to... How do we thoughtfully even introduce this? 'Cause even though it seems logical as we talk about it, at least in my practice, I know there often tends to be quite a [00:17:00] divide between what's happening for us physically and our- Mm-hmm mental health. Um, you know, and so it might feel really different for folks to be asking. And again, because, maybe 'cause it's specifically about, you know, as is true for many areas of women's health, again, I think people might be hesitant to broach the subject perhaps. Yeah. Just curious what you found with that. MC: Yeah. Thank you for saying that, um, Vikki, because, um, I, I get that question a lot, sort of like how do we, um, how do I actually do this? Right. Like, what do I, what do I say to bring this into my practice? Right. And so what I often say to people is it's important, I think, to reflect on our own, you know, kind of, um, experience of talking about the menstrual cycle, what, you know, stigma or bias might be present within all of us because the reality is, and I think this is one of the reasons why we're not already doing this more in practice, is there still is this menstrual stigma in our culture- Right and society. Yeah. I think that's changing. We're seeing, you know, conversation- more conversations now about, you know, [00:18:00] perimenopause and menopause- Yeah ... and people are becoming a bit more interested and open to this idea that the cycle affects, you know, uh, many aspects of who we are. But, you know, menstruation and the menstrual cycle is still not really dinner table conversation in most people's houses. Yeah. And so I think starting to reflect, you know, as the, as the therapist on kind of your own comfort level because how you h- the confidence you kind of bring into asking the question sort of sets the tone in terms of how that will be, how that will land with your client. And so what I often tell people is just as you're in your first few sessions as you're hearing people kind of explain or talk to you about what's going on for them, you just open with a really cur- you know, curious question. First of all, I often ask the question, "Do you have a menstrual cycle?" You know? Right. Um, then if the person does, I'll often just say, you know, something along the lines of, "Have you ever noticed that anything, you know, that you're describing to me or sharing with me today changes across your menstrual cycle?" And then what I'll often follow that up with was just a little bit of psychoeducation, something like, "You know, we're, we're learning so much more, you know, about [00:19:00] the connection between the menstrual cycle and mental health, and I'm just curious if that's been your, you know, experience at all." Just a really gentle kind of- Mm curiosity-based question. Yeah. Most people, if they have a menstrual cycle, will answer yes to that question. Right. And then it's a little bit of an invitation to, uh, to ask further questions and, um, to go a little bit deeper into what they're noticing. Vicki: Yeah. MC: So that's often how I say that's, that's the place to start is just with this curiosity. The other thing is sometimes we'll hear from our clients things like, you know, we ask them, "Okay, um, how have things been going since our last session?" And they'll say something like, "Oh, you know, up and down." Vicki: Right. MC: Or, um, "It comes and goes." Right. "Good and bad." These are really good opportunities or, again, invitations to just get curious. "Oh, I'm wondering if any of these ups and downs or these goods and bads if you've noticed that those are changing across your cycle." So there's lo- lots of these little opportunities or invitations- Right ... to ask initial questions. Oh, yeah. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then what I would say is if the client is [00:20:00] interested- And many people are. We often invite them, "Hey, would you be interested in tracking your cycle, you know, for the next X amount of time?" You know, ideally a few cycles is, is great, but one to two cycles just to see what we're noticing in terms of how your mental health is changing, um, and sort of starting there. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. Absolutely. MC: Yeah. Yeah. Vicki: That's, that's lovely, and appreciate you giving those real tangible examples, 'cause yeah, I can just hear in that it's, yeah, just broaching the topic, bridging the subject, and then just very invitational to see if it's an area they're interested to explore. Yeah. MC: Yeah. And what we also know too is that clients are, and we can see this in some of the research, that clients are still, because of the stigma- Mm-hmm clients are still hesitant to bring up menstrual cycle related issues with physicians, with mental health practitioners. Yeah. And so it's really important that we- You know, ask the question. People are used to, and many of us can probably reflect on experiences in the medical system where, you know, uh, the cycle-related aspects of ourselves have been minimized, you know, or [00:21:00] overlooked entirely. Like, "Oh, no, there's no way that your knee pain is changing across your cycle." Like, these types of things that kind of get minimized. Yeah. We've all had that experience. Yeah. And so, um, from my perspective, clients mostly really appreciate the questions- Yeah ... and mostly really appreciate the opportunity to speak about this because it's been something that may have been silenced or minimized in other circles before. Right. Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Mm-hmm. Vicki: So, and I, I wanna ask you this, MC, just 'cause as I'm listening to you- Mm ... it, it sparks this question. This might be taking us off our main focus a little bit, but I can't help thinking, um, uh, you know, I think, like, all, all humans, all bodies have- Yeah ... different, have impacts of hormones, I'm sure, and different kinds of cycles. And so, um, do you see that as well, like, kind of bridges into, you know, no matter who you're working with and, and whether they have a menstruation cycle or not? But just the impact of being able to notice the impact of cycles and hormones in their body, 'cause there's a lot of different reasons and, and [00:22:00] ways that people might be going through changes in that regard. Yeah. MC: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I think this d- this is part of a broader kind of conversation, I think, Vicki, around just y- like you said, how hormones affect people's mental health in general, right? And that could be, you know, for men and male people in male bodies. That could be for, you know, the trans community. That could be for people on birth control. Right. Right? There's all kinds of aspects- Yeah ... um, but we have to be... And, and the reality is, is we're- we don't have enough research. It's still not being researched to the degree- Right ... that we need it to. Yeah. That's starting to change, I think. Um, and then like you said, in, in perimenopause and menopause. So there's so much here to kind of, uh, look at further and understand further. Right. And again, it's not saying that the hormones are, is the full picture. Right. It's not everything, but it's something, and we're not quite capturing that fully yet- Right ... in, you know, in my opinion. Yeah. And this can affect, like you said, so many people in so many different bodies. Right. And we think we'd really benefit from, you know, further conversations and further research- Vicki: Absolutely ... MC: into Vicki: this too. Yeah. MC: Yeah, Vicki: for sure. Yeah. And I can, and I, I imagine [00:23:00] too, the other thing I'm thinking about is that, you know, if, if this is an area that, uh, a client is interested in and they start tracking- Yeah I mean, absolutely just to really work with the cycle as you've been describing to us already today. But it's, it's- Yeah ... I would imagine it just, it also ha- probably has so many other spill-off benefits of just that, just a greater awareness of the connections between our physical and emotional and mental and, you know, just that interconnection of, of our- Yeah of our whole nervous system. Um, and so- Yes ... it probably just really has all these spill-off effects into how a person understands themselves and maybe even the work, the counseling work that might be happening. MC: Yeah, absolutely it does. Yeah, and you know, I often say there's a way of practicing, you know, cycle tracking that has almost a mindfulness feel to it- Mm because it's about kind of, you know, pausing and inviting y- yourself to check in where you're at each cycle day to be like, you know, "Well, how am I experiencing myself? What am I noticing, you know, in my, in my body, in my [00:24:00] mind, in my emotions today?" Yeah. And really being able to use that sort of cycle-based position to, um, yeah, anchor into getting to know ourselves, and it can be really applied to, to, you know, to mindfulness-based kind of practices quite, quite beautifully. If someone already has a mindfulness practice, it's quite easy to, to integrate sort of a cycle day check-in around that as well. Right. So absolutely. That's great. Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Yeah. Yeah. Vicki: So I'm wondering if d- if you wanted to share any more, um... Like, y- you described beautifully already kinda that, that initial question of like how does one even start this and, and introducing perhaps including this into, um, into a person's practice. Um, I know that then, then the next question will always be, "Okay, so once they bring back the information, now what? What's next?" Yeah. Um, and, and so I'm wondering if you, um... Are there some other strategies or steps that, that, uh, or, or just, um, things to think about that you'd like to describe that counselors can be [00:25:00] aware of, that they can, um, maybe start thinking about even using or just be aware of this is something they could learn more about so they have a, an idea- Mm-hmm of what this process might look like? MC: Yeah. What I, what I often say, um, for th- for therapists that are looking to start this in practice is if you're cur- if you're, if you and your client are, have decided that you wanna sort of take some time and, and look at this person's mental health experience through this lens, then we do-- It does involve kind of inviting them to track their cycle. And what I always say is just pick one or two things- Mm-hmm ... in, in collaboration with your client, just one or two aspects of your client's mental health that they're maybe curious to look at whether there are cyclical-related changes. So maybe this person's coming to see you because they have, you know, uh, some symptoms of anxiety, so maybe you're picking, like, you know, panic attacks. Do their panic attacks shift and change across a cycle? Maybe you're picking, uh, you know, their sleep or some other aspect that they kind of are already suspecting might shift and flow. So keep it, keep it really simple. Like, don't pick, like, 10 things to start tracking. [00:26:00] Oh, that's good. Good advice. Yeah, one or two kind of primary things. And then when that client sort of brings, uh, that information back to you, the exploration next is, "Hey, would you be willing to work with, you know, work with some of those changes in our therapy sessions? So we'll schedule a session where we're in that second half of the cycle and you're noticing the increase in anxiety or the increase in panic attacks, and we'll schedule a session earlier in the cycle just to see, you know, what's coming up that day and, and what we might wanna work with that way." And so it does- Mm ... it does sort of invite the opportunity to schedule sessions along the cycle, even just a few times to get a sense of what your client is noticing and to support them- Right ... in, in deepening their kind of experience and their awareness of, of where they're at cyclically and then what they need. Right. Um, so that's kind of another, uh, sort of the next sort of level or layer of a key to, is actually looking at working at different points in the menstrual cycle- Right ... to support your clients in really embodying these, these things that they're noticing. Vicki: Yeah. That makes- Yeah ... a lot of sense. And- MC: Yes Vicki: another-- What popped in my mind right away that I could imagine talking with a lot of [00:27:00] clients about is tracking sleep. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. Just different- Yeah ... different patterns there. Usually one MC: of the first ones. Yeah. Absolutely. Vicki: Yeah. MC: Yes. Yeah, many, many things. Vicki: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and I know earlier when we were, um, you were describing the, you know, introducing this, you know, you were saying kinda then, then, like- Using, using this awareness and, and working with the cycle alongside whatever counseling modalities that- Mm-hmm that people already use. Um, are there... I mean, for yourself, what are... Are there particular, uh, modalities you... Like, do you work- tend to work more somatically, or do you... Are there certain modalities that you find yourself just really conducive to pairing with this? MC: Yeah. Yeah, I tend to... I have, I have training in sensorimotor psychotherapy. Um, uh, Vicki, so p- like just for myself, I, I do tend to use some more somatic-based interventions. Yeah. And I do... You know, I find the, the menstrual cycle, of course, like, works so beautifully with that because it's a part of our body and an aspect of our being. Um, but in working with other therapists [00:28:00] and doing training with other therapists, this model or this framework, I would say, it's not a new model. Uh, this framework really works well with, um, IFS. Mm. Mm-hmm. So, um, yeah, um, because the parts work- Vicki: Yeah ... MC: uh, and exploring with people parts of self that come out- Right ... uh, cyclically, and that really changes for folks. So I've had some, some therapists who have done training with me who are, you know, IFS-trained- Yeah therapists and have had a lot of curiosity about that or some nice invitations to kind of explore parts work. So, but really, quite frankly, I, I feel that this can fit qui- quite well with any modality, right? If you're CBT trained or DBT trained, you know, just to be thinking- Yeah ... from that perspective of, okay, you know, once we understand some of these neurobiological underpinnings, what are the interventions and the tools from my own model that might support times in the cycle where there's less regulation, as an example, or more regulation, or where there's better mood or, or worsening mood? Um, you know, therapists are really, you know, i- able to draw from whatever model they're already trained in, Vicki. I think it fits quite well- Yeah ... with, with- Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:00] Yeah. It's kind of the beauty of it. That's- Yeah ... Vicki: that makes a lot of sense. Um- Yeah ... did you have any, did you have any examples you wanted to share of just, like, more from a client perspective? Like, um, what are some of the shifts you've seen happen for people that kind of stand out for you? MC: Yeah. One, yeah, one of the biggest shifts that I've seen, um, is coming into relationship with the menstrual cycle completely differently. Mm. It's about this sort of reclaiming the idea that being in a cyclical body is... I mean, we've been told a really bad narrative about this in our culture, that it's a bad thing, and, you know, we have a, like we're hormonal and we're emotional and we're all these things. But when a client learns how their, you know, how their neurobiology changes across the cycle, how they experience themselves change, what they need changes, it really is an empowering process to kind of reclaim what it means to be in a cycling body. And so some of the biggest shifts I've seen is just that people approach s- for example, the premenstrual phase, which is often the most tricky and challenging phase from a symptom [00:30:00] perspective. Mm. When we understand that part of the cycle differently, um, it becomes less distressing. Our, our, sometimes what we experience at that time just naturally shifts and change because we have a different relationship to it now. Yeah. It's like we're able to, to honor it for what it's doing, the role it's playing, that it's actually, it's, you know, it, it, it offers us wisdom and information about who we are and other aspects of our being. And so honestly, one of the biggest shifts or transformations is just, you know, the, the change in the relationship to being in a cycling body and what that can really do to support somebody's mental health. Yeah. Vicki: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really neat. And, and I would imagine, you know, these are, these would be really interesting conversations also to just, for you, it must be interesting to notice across the lifespan as well, you know- Yeah ... just, uh, the different kinds of patterns and what that evokes. And even, even what you were just saying there, like just coming into relationship, um, I don't know, maybe this is linked with where I'm at in my own journey. I'm at, I'm, I'm [00:31:00] perimenopausal, so- somewhere in that territory. And, uh- And what actually came to mind is I think for, for maybe people at my stage of life or even later, there can also be a little bit of grief, I think, over maybe having been disconnected from- Yeah one's body for decades, right? That sort of thing, so- Yeah. Yeah ... there's all kinds of layers I'm sure that come out in this work. Yeah. MC: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a really good point. So there, there have been, yeah, when, when we learn about sort of the, the potential and power that is within the menstrual cycle, you know, there can be grief if we haven't been able, if we haven't experienced that, you know- Yeah or that lens has been left out of our experience- Right. Vicki: Yeah ... MC: after. And then I, I do, you know, really believe this model or this, um, idea is really helpful for folks who, yeah, are in that perimenopausal transition where their cycle might be changing a little bit. But if we have these- Yeah ... kind of, if we already know how to be in relationship to our cycle and we know h- ourselves across the cycle, it's really supportive of those perimenopausal- Yeah years when things really start to kinda ebb and flow and change, [00:32:00] not necessarily in that typical cyclical pattern. Vicki: Right. MC: Um, this can be a really sort of foundational piece to come into those perimenopausal years with, um, and a, a way of having known yourself- Yeah ... to kind of get you through that, those changes as well. So I think it's helpful if we can do this earlier, right? So that when people go through that- Yeah ... important shift- Absolutely ... they've got some of that information already. Yeah. Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. Well, the, I don't know that you used this word, but the word that comes to mind is, is compassion. Like, it just seems like it's, it's such an opportunity to probably bring in a, a, a sense of- Of, well, y- as you said, becoming in relationship with our own bodies, our own cycles, and perhaps bring in a sense of compassion in an area that we've often, has just often probably for many people felt like a, like a challenge, right? And, uh- Mm ... kind of battling with our own bodies a little bit. So- MC: Absolutely ... Vicki: that sounds really, Eric: that's really powerful. Vicki: Yeah. Yeah, MC: to be able to work with that and- Absolutely ... Vicki: yeah, Eric: absolutely. MC: Yeah. It's, it's really powerful. Vicki: Yeah. I'm c- I'm curious how, [00:33:00] um, at, ear- earlier you made a comment about, uh, you know, that we are seeing in general, there's a lot more public conversation about perimenopause and, and menopause- Mm-hmm these days than, you know, quite a, quite a lot of shift even in the last just few years. And so, so, um, I'm curious, do you feel like you're seeing that gap in between the, our cycles and mental health? Do, do you f- are you feeling some hope, I guess? Do you feel like you're seeing it being filled at all? Or what do you feel like you, you're seeing happening on that? MC: Yeah, yeah. I'm definitely feeling some hope. I think, um, you, like I, I think there's just a increased curiosity about this to begin with. There's increased openness to the idea of this, and there seems to be something hap- like you said- Yeah ... something kind of happening or shifting right now culturally, collectively I would say, um, to kind of, you know, be, want, like there's a desire I think to sort of reframe what the menstrual cycle means, you know? And I think, um, I am, you know, anywhere where I've been [00:34:00] doing, you know, trainings or whether that's in healthcare or in nonprofit settings, there's just, there's this really, this acknowledgement of, "Yes, we, like we need this," and like you said, "This makes sense, and how are we not already doing this?" Right. And so there d- there does seem to be this moment kind of collectively I think, Vicki, where we are just hearing more about cycles- Yeah ... hearing more about hormones. And, and so I am really hopeful that there could be some changes here, um, as there's still the, the gap, but I think, um, I think we're moving in the right direction. Absolutely. Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. MC: That's very Vicki: exciting. MC: It is. Yeah. Vicki: And so, and, and so wanna bring it back to you and your work. And, and curious- Mm ... um, yeah, your I, I know y- you obviously have a very curious and creative mind, and so I imagine you're continuing to learn and build on this. And so, um, wondering, you know, what kind of projects are you working on now, or, or just what are you thinking about as in the, in the- Yeah future for this kind of work? MC: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I, [00:35:00] um, I have, like, big, you know- Oh, yeah ... I have big dreams and visions for this work. Again, you know, I would love to be able to see, you know what, someday in academic circles and when we're in our, our, you know, doing our master's in counseling, that there is some kind of a module, at least a moment, where we're talking about this- Right you know, in our, uh, in our training. So I have this big idea that we can shift the field of psychotherapy somehow to at least have a little bit more information about this and to be a bit more inclusive- Yeah ... of this information. But for myself, that's, that's really where my passion is, is, um, bringing this information more into the psychotherapy field. So I have... Over the past few years, I have been facilitating, you know, workshops and trainings in, in various settings, and, um, I've had some questions about making it a bit more, uh, accessible, so I'm taking it online this year in the fall. Um, I will be offering, um, a program where folks can learn, uh, more about this and can learn, like you were sort of asking, um, Vicki, sort of the steps of this process- Yeah how to introduce cycle tracking- Yeah ... to your therapy practice [00:36:00] and, you know, a deeper dive into kind of the neurobiological aspects of this, and then how to work with your clients across the four phases of the menstrual cycle. Um, and before, before that time, though, I will be offering, um, I... In a few days' time, I, uh, I will be offering a, a webinar on, um, integrating the menstrual cycle into psychotherapy, and I'll be offering that again in the fall on September the 16th. Um, for folks who are curious about this and may want to learn a little bit more, I will be offering another webinar on September the 16th to learn more as well. Okay. So I've got lots of things in the, in the, uh, sort of in my mind and lots of projects on the go, Vicki, because I really, really want this information to be- Vicki: Yeah MC: you know, in the hands of every therapist, um, for our clients and for ourselves. Um, it's so important. Yeah. Vicki: Yeah. That s- Yeah ... sounds really great. And, and we'll, we'll get the, the links from you and that information, and we'll include, uh, links for d- to find these courses you're talking about and, and find your website in the show notes so [00:37:00] folks can learn more or find out how to connect with, uh, some of your teaching. So that's- Yeah ... sounds really good. MC: Well, thank you, Vicki. Good. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Vicki: Well, MC, this has been really delightful, and so I just wanna really thank you for, uh... Well, thank you for your work, and your passion, and for persevering, and... 'Cause I know- Yeah ... it, it's not easy to- To, to dive in, especially w- es- especially w- you know, a- as first you were looking after, trying to look after your own health, and then just to be able to really bring that to the rest of us and, and offer that as a, as a bridge to learning more about ourselves. Really appreciate your work and, and your conversation today. MC: Thank you so much, Vicki. Thank you so much for having me. I'm, yeah, just happy to share this information with anybody, so I really appreciate the invite onto your podcast. Yeah, it's been great. Vicki: Wonderful. Thank you. MC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Vicki: Good. And to you, our listeners, thank you for joining us, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation today and come back for the next one in a month's time. Until... [00:38:00] So until then, be well and stay curious Eric: Looking for free resources and training in the areas of trauma, counseling, and mental health? Be sure to check out our website at www.ctrinstitute.com